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  #3971  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoek View Post
Somewhat related as a Bolt decides to speak up...

NHL stars blast Russia's anti-gay legislation
I'm sorry for that, but that "horror story" about "anti-gay law" in Russia is kind of much ado about nothing. I don't know did anyone, who talks about "anti-gay" legislation have read this "anti-gay law" or even saw it on paper. At least I'm sure that neither Zetterberg or Hedman did.

Here's the text of this law (it's on Russian)

What does this law says? It adds "homosexual propaganda" right next to "traditional" pornography in the list of information that should be banned from children access. That's all this "anti-gay law" does.

So in context of the "horrible Russian government" that oppresses gay community, it would be right to say, that it also oppresses adult industry, while banning children access to pornographic movies.
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  #3972  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:15 AM
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That may be the text of the law, but the way it's being interpreted and enforced is far more violent and restrictive. Any public demonstration for equal rights has been shut down with beatings and handcuffs, and that law only helps codify that restriction of free speech because *gasp* think of the children that might be walking by as some people hold up signs full of homosexual propaganda like just asking to be treated like everyone else.

http://news.sky.com/story/1095386/ru...ested-at-rally

Last edited by Hoek; 08-20-2013 at 08:19 AM.
  #3973  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoek View Post
That may be the text of the law, but the way it's being interpreted and enforced is far more violent and restrictive. Any public demonstration for equal rights has been shut down with beatings and handcuffs, and that law only helps codify that restriction of free speech because *gasp* think of the children that might be walking by as some people hold up signs full of homosexual propaganda like just asking to be treated like everyone else.

http://news.sky.com/story/1095386/ru...ested-at-rally
Which is why this country is so great. We all have the right to protest, though in a non violent way, and say what we think.
  #3974  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:52 AM
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Sure. This list also includes violence propaganda. Hockey sometimes could be violent (and not on rare ocasions, actually). Or boxing (or other fightning sports) could be violent. Does it means that those sports are banned in Russia?

You could "use" almost any paragraph from this list to ban something. Drugs? Yeas, sure you can easily buy some medicaments in regular pharmacy, mix them and get the drug. And kids can go to regular pharmacy. Let's ban pharmacies.

Actually you can take me personally, and lay a fine. Because I use Russian obscent lexic in my speech periodically. And it also included in this list. So it could happen that children will hear it... So, I confess. I'm a criminal.

As for this beautiful photos of gays are beating by police. According to Russia legislation (not the "anty-gay" one), you should agree the place of mass events with local authorities. Mass events that are not agreed with local authorities are subject of dispersal by police. That is the law. Is it right or wrong I don't know. But. Dura lex sed lex.

So it's easy in Russia. You want have some beautiful photos of police arrests inocent people (no matter if they are gays or if they are heterosexual)? Just organize any mass event and don't agree the place with local authorities. Great pictures of police brutality are guaranteed.

As for Vladislav Tornovoi, "gay wo was killed in Volgograd" this story was well-publicized in Russia. (Here, for example). According to this report Tornovoi had a girlfriend, who declined to give any comments on his death. But this story looks very strange. He had a girlfriend, all his friends saying that he wasn't gay, his father says he wasn't a gay. The only person says that he was a gay - is the one who killed him. The guy who was previously imprisoned for violent behavior and attemt to kill. So you decide was Tornovoi a gay or not. I can tell you a story from my own life. When I was 17, I was beaten by four drunk idiots so, that I was in hospital for more than a month. You know what the real reason was? I was living on the other street, so I was an "alien" on their territory. That's all. I even wasn't a gay. So when I compare my own story to this one, I almost sure no matter if he was gay or not, this happened just because two drunk idiots forgot that they are human, and became an animals.

As for gay tolerance in Russia generally, I would agree that homosexuality is still not considered as normal by the majority of the people in country. But that is not like "Hey, let kill some gays today", as described in this article. It's more like "the gays are other than me". Not very good either, but it's true. And for sure that's not because of the law that ban homosexual propoganda from children access.

So I have the following to conclude this discussion (really, I don't want to discuss it at all):
1. In general people in Russia are not tolerant to gays. True. Majority of the people are cautious abut gays.
2. People in Russia loves to go on street and to beat and kill gays. Lie. There are some religious fanatics who really hate gays, and pull some actual phisical actions. Yes, they are. But don't equate religious fanatics to the whole nation. Yes there are some people (there is a russian designation "otmorozki", which could be translated as "freezed", or "brain-freezed"), who can beat or even kill you just because they don't like your dress. But it can happened in any case - no matter if you are gay or not.
3. Russian police beats gays on regular basis. Half-true. Police beats anyone who will not agree mass event with authorities. That is the subject for general human rights compliance in Russia. Not only gays.
4. There is special "anti-gay law" in Russia. No. There is a law that includes homosexual propaganda in the list of information banned for children. With some fantasy you can use this list to ban completely everything for anyone. You can also call this list "anti-pharmacy", "anti-sports", "anti-movies", "anti-computer games" etc.

So, please let's end this discussion. I know that Russia is not an ideal country for gays. But there is no "anti gay laws". There's a list of information that should be banned for kids. And yes, if you would like to use this list with some fantasy, you can end up with ban for movies, books, 24-hour shops (hey, they sell condoms, you know, that's dirty behavior propaganda among children), etc.
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Last edited by Chelya; 08-20-2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: edited "men rights" to "human rights". sorry for that mistake
  #3975  
Old 08-20-2013, 11:51 AM
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Homosexual propoganda is often times sexual in its delivery. I went to San Diego once and while shopping bumped into a homosexual parade where men wore briefs and held up a giant cake of a penis....

If it is the intent of the Russian law to outlaw that, I can understand. But why not make it a law against public displays of sexuality in general? Even if homosexual vs heterosexual subcommunicates sexuality...explicit descriptions and graphics shouldn't be involved.
  #3976  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelya View Post
Sure. This list also includes violence propaganda. Hockey sometimes could be violent (and not on rare ocasions, actually). Or boxing (or other fightning sports) could be violent. Does it means that those sports are banned in Russia?

You could "use" almost any paragraph from this list to ban something. Drugs? Yeas, sure you can easily buy some medicaments in regular pharmacy, mix them and get the drug. And kids can go to regular pharmacy. Let's ban pharmacies.

Actually you can take me personally, and lay a fine. Because I use Russian obscent lexic in my speech periodically. And it also included in this list. So it could happen that children will hear it... So, I confess. I'm a criminal.
Your hyperbole does nothing to discredit my point unless you can point to the law actually being enforced in any of those ways. My example is already proven and is nowhere near as much of a stretch as the fantasies you concocted.

Quote:
As for this beautiful photos of gays are beating by police. According to Russia legislation (not the "anty-gay" one), you should agree the place of mass events with local authorities. Mass events that are not agreed with local authorities are subject of dispersal by police. That is the law. Is it right or wrong I don't know. But. Dura lex sed lex.

So it's easy in Russia. You want have some beautiful photos of police arrests inocent people (no matter if they are gays or if they are heterosexual)? Just organize any mass event and don't agree the place with local authorities. Great pictures of police brutality are guaranteed.
You do realize they have tried to get permission for these events and have been denied every time? At some point civil disobedience is order, and the response by the authorities has always been completely out of proportion. Just because everyone else gets treated like crap doesn't excuse it against any particular group, either. If in some way this struggle for gay rights can improve the rights of everyone to speak up that would be fantastic and I would think everyone in Russia would welcome that.

Quote:
As for Vladislav Tornovoi, "gay wo was killed in Volgograd" this story was well-publicized in Russia. (Here, for example). According to this report Tornovoi had a girlfriend, who declined to give any comments on his death. But this story looks very strange. He had a girlfriend, all his friends saying that he wasn't gay, his father says he wasn't a gay. The only person says that he was a gay - is the one who killed him. The guy who was previously imprisoned for violent behavior and attemt to kill. So you decide was Tornovoi a gay or not. I can tell you a story from my own life. When I was 17, I was beaten by four drunk idiots so, that I was in hospital for more than a month. You know what the real reason was? I was living on the other street, so I was an "alien" on their territory. That's all. I even wasn't a gay. So when I compare my own story to this one, I almost sure no matter if he was gay or not, this happened just because two drunk idiots forgot that they are human, and became an animals.
Have you heard of a thing called being in the closet? Plenty of gay people have resorted to fake relationships with the opposite sex for cover. Even if he wasn't gay, the fact that being perceived as one might have led to his death is just as abominable, also the fact that it could be used a lame excuse for murder after the fact is inexcusable. So either way it's an outrage.

Quote:
As for gay tolerance in Russia generally, I would agree that homosexuality is still not considered as normal by the majority of the people in country. But that is not like "Hey, let kill some gays today", as described in this article. It's more like "the gays are other than me". Not very good either, but it's true. And for sure that's not because of the law that ban homosexual propoganda from children access.

So I have the following to conclude this discussion (really, I don't want to discuss it at all):
1. In general people in Russia are not tolerant to gays. True. Majority of the people are cautious abut gays.
2. People in Russia loves to go on street and to beat and kill gays. Lie. There are some religious fanatics who really hate gays, and pull some actual phisical actions. Yes, they are. But don't equate religious fanatics to the whole nation. Yes there are some people (there is a russian designation "otmorozki", which could be translated as "freezed", or "brain-freezed"), who can beat or even kill you just because they don't like your dress. But it can happened in any case - no matter if you are gay or not.
3. Russian police beats gays on regular basis. Half-true. Police beats anyone who will not agree mass event with authorities. That is the subject for general human rights compliance in Russia. Not only gays.
4. There is special "anti-gay law" in Russia. No. There is a law that includes homosexual propaganda in the list of information banned for children. With some fantasy you can use this list to ban completely everything for anyone. You can also call this list "anti-pharmacy", "anti-sports", "anti-movies", "anti-computer games" etc.

So, please let's end this discussion. I know that Russia is not an ideal country for gays. But there is no "anti gay laws". There's a list of information that should be banned for kids. And yes, if you would like to use this list with some fantasy, you can end up with ban for movies, books, 24-hour shops (hey, they sell condoms, you know, that's dirty behavior propaganda among children), etc.
I never insinuated that all Russians hate gay people or they all go around beating up and killing them. That obviously couldn't be further from the truth, and I would never pretend to know the facts on the ground to that level. I have a couple friends in Russia (who are at risk because of laws like this) so I know it's not like that. But Russia clearly does have a bad law here (especially if it can be stretched to ban everything like you suggest) that deserves criticism and their society could stand to be more tolerant of minorities overall. Pretty every homophobic law in the world today is cloaked in false justification as "for the children" so that doesn't register with me at all. Russia is lumped in with such paragons of human rights as Iran, Uganda, etc. with such legislation.

Last edited by Hoek; 08-20-2013 at 08:22 PM.
  #3977  
Old 08-21-2013, 06:18 AM
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There should be a new national holiday in Canada the day Ted Cruz officially revokes his Canadian citizenship. They have enough of their own bat shit crazy cranks of their own.

Where are you, birthers? Just like Obama (if you buy the Kenya bullshit) he was born to an American mother on foreign soil. Seems he is not as "exotic" as O so no comment from them. Even Trump when asked Trump would not address it.

I wonder what they consider "exotic"? Hmmmmmm......
  #3978  
Old 08-21-2013, 09:35 AM
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He looks white ... so, case closed.
  #3979  
Old 08-21-2013, 10:37 AM
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And now this about UPS and dropping spouse coverage. From the Atlanta Business Chronicle.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/m...uses-from.html



Quote:
Earlier this week, Forever 21 Inc. became the latest national company to cut employee hours to counter the impact of Obamacare, according to Policymic.com.

Atlanta-based AAA Parking, a parking garage operator that employs more than 1,600 companywide, moved about half of its 500 full-time hourly employees to part-time status on April 15, in response to the law.
  #3980  
Old 08-21-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Side View Post
And now this about UPS and dropping spouse coverage. From the Atlanta Business Chronicle.
They aren't dropping spouse coverage for all. Right in the beginning of the article, it states that are dropping spousal coverage for thousands because they are eligible to get coverage elsewhere.

Here's what I found interesting in the article

Quote:
The health law requires large employers to cover employees and dependent children, but not spouses or domestic partners, Kaiser adds.
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