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  #20681  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:22 PM
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pete pete is offline
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IOW, when you contextualize the law into the time it was enacted, it was an attempt to fix a problem that fell short of its goal. If you're going to crucify Biden for that, cool, but I'd ask you to remember the old FDR quote:

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It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
I don't expect perfection from my politicians. I expect honest effort. Folks who have seen Biden's career know, right or wrong, he puts forth an honest effort. You can't say that about many politicians (looking at you, Marco Rubio).
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  #20682  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:38 PM
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RSchmitz RSchmitz is offline
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Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
So your position is that you must have intent, regardless of your actions being racist(known to be racist at the time), to be a racist? Ok. I disagree. It's the soft racism that white liberals have always permitted and even supported. It's the racism that MLK was talking about in his Letters from a Birmingham Jail.
"known to be racist at the time"

Considering how many black legislatures and community leaders pushed for those laws and voted yes for them, I find that suspect. It's loose use of the word and unfair to apply.
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  #20683  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:43 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
From the article I linked



Biden himself has acknowledged the mistake. It's taking that mistake and saying that regardless of the intent or reasoning behind it, that it makes Biden a racist, that I don't agree with.
Like I said before. He operates in a framework that is inherently racist. By doing so, and not seeking to dismantle the racist framework, he's a racist. I already mentioned Donnie's point about AA community leaders begging for help and tougher sentencing for the crack epidemic. There were others who, at the time, saw the hell this would unleash on the AA community.

Btw, you still haven't managed to tell me how his answer to the Legacy of Slavery wasn't paternalistically racist as fuck. And how are we to know if someone is a racist if we don't judge them by their beliefs?

Donnie is also wrong and grossly so attributing mass incarceration policies with the defeating of the crack epidemic. There are multiple factors that have caused the decline of crack use (it's still abused but not nearly on the level it was during the 80s and 90s). Chief among these is the quality of the product has decreased while the price has skyrocketed. Marry these two factors with the increasingly easy availability of methamphetamine and the big pharma industry never sleeping on an opportunity to make a buck off of human misery and you can see that the epidemic hasn't ceased, it's just moved into another form. The real way to combat drug addiction and sales is to legalize and regulate their use. The drug-related crime revolving around crack and other illegal drugs is what caused the crying out for a drastic and barbaric solution to the problem. Legalize, regulate, treat as a public health issue. Far fewer gang-drug-related murders and other crimes. Some folks who were contemporaries with Biden in the 80s and 90s were calling for this more humane way to address the problem rather than mass incarceration and the creation of the New Jim Crow. It's not 100% 20/20 hindsight when the alternatives were known about at the time and dismissed out of hand because it was easier to discard lives in prison instead of doing the morally right thing.

Chris Hedges described how poverty under capitalism spreads from the minority and marginalized communities to metastasize to whiter communities and eventually to the traditionally more affluent communities if it's given enough time. You can see this happening all over the country with the opioid and meth epidemic. Bernie references them as Diseases of Despair. So addiction and suicide and death by overdose have led to the decline in American life expectancy for the first time in the history of our nation.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK
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  #20684  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:44 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
"known to be racist at the time"

Considering how many black legislatures and community leaders pushed for those laws and voted yes for them, I find that suspect. It's loose use of the word and unfair to apply.
Uh, the war on drugs was KNOWN to be racist period. It was initially implemented to destroy Latino, Black, and hippy communities by Nixon. It only got worse as time went on.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK
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  #20685  
Old 01-11-2020, 04:45 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
IOW, when you contextualize the law into the time it was enacted, it was an attempt to fix a problem that fell short of its goal. If you're going to crucify Biden for that, cool, but I'd ask you to remember the old FDR quote:



I don't expect perfection from my politicians. I expect honest effort. Folks who have seen Biden's career know, right or wrong, he puts forth an honest effort. You can't say that about many politicians (looking at you, Marco Rubio).
Sure Pete, but folks like Biden don't actually try anything else. They still serve the desires of their donors above all else and it shapes their policy. He's not the leader that the party needs now. Maybe when he initially tried to plagiarize his way to the WH, but not now. If Biden had sought tougher sentencing guidelines coupled with a public health, economic, education investment in the affected communities with a massive granting of funding to treat the root causes of poverty and drug addiction in those communities, then I'd have zero problem with your take on it. The easy "tough on crime" look for political gain was easy for him to don because it didn't involve him harming anyone but the nameless and faceless poor black and brown people. After all, their own leaders were calling for it. It's taken him until 2018 to accept decriminalization of marijuana and opening it up to medical research. Again, not the leader the party needs now.

So we have the benefit of hindsight. Biden isn't running for office back then. He's running for the WH now. There are other choices that are far better who have the added benefit of having been proven right even if we look back in hindsight. Biden was wrong. Sanders was right more often than not. That speaks to judgement, conviction, and courage. Sanders has been out in front of both parties showing the right way for a very long time. Fortunately, one party has a shot of catching up to him on policy. It can be the Dems or they can see all of the left leave their ranks. They can embrace the left and the new blood that Sanders's movement has motivated, or they can do what you suggested. The young on the left aren't going to move back to meet the corporate-sponsored shills.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK

Last edited by ZeykShade; 01-11-2020 at 04:59 PM.
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  #20686  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:02 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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https://twitter.com/donnydonny/statu...90613274873857

Blue Dogs bribed into being pro-war with Iran.

Blue Dogs also holding fundraiser for Biden.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK
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  #20687  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:05 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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To pete's point about progress is being had.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Grassroots people power does work.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK
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  #20688  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:11 PM
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RSchmitz RSchmitz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Uh, the war on drugs was KNOWN to be racist period. It was initially implemented to destroy Latino, Black, and hippy communities by Nixon. It only got worse as time went on.
I was talking about crack vs cocaine laws that the black community wanted, not the broader legislation against drugs.
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  #20689  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:23 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
I was talking about crack vs cocaine laws that the black community wanted, not the broader legislation against drugs.
Which the crack cocaine sentencing guidelines amended. It put a racist policy plan on steroids. Basically as Donnie pointed out, a knee-jerk reaction to the drug-gang-related crime ravaging communities of color. As often is the case, knee-jerk legislation is a bad idea. This was also known and spoken about at the time. Hell, we are still dealing with the AUMF, the NDAA, and the Patriot Act that were passed as knee-jerk reactions to the threat of terrorism.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK
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  #20690  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:24 PM
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ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
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Default David Pakman on Social Democracy vs. Socialism

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice... - MLK
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