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  #20661  
Old 01-10-2020, 06:59 PM
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RSchmitz RSchmitz is offline
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Proof that Biden is a racist doesn't exist
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  #20662  
Old 01-10-2020, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
Proof that Biden is a racist doesn't exist
Refute the evidence provided. Simply making a declaration doesn't make it so. It's of even less value coming from you. "Systemic racism doesn't exist" & "Confederate Monuments aren't racist".

Joe Biden has a career marked by multiple instances of him not only supporting but being the leader for policies that worsened systemic racism.

His own words when asked about the legacy of slavery are pretty damned racist and would have ended other candidacies.

But you've already proven that you have almost no understanding of racism, so I'm not sure why I bothered to type this in reply.
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  #20663  
Old 01-10-2020, 11:35 PM
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Joe Biden has been in the public eye since he first became a US Senator in 1972. So, he's been a known commodity for the past 47 years. What I find paternalistic and patronizing is a bunch of folks, the vast majority of whom are not people of color, trying to tell the African American community they've somehow been snookered or are ignorant in their appraisal of the man over the past four plus decades and in their continued support for him in the polls.

FTR, in case it isn't obvious, I don't believe Joe Biden or Pete Buttigieg are closet white supremacists, and I think any campaign that thinks that screaming "RACIST!" at opposing campaigns is an effective substitute for legitimate outreach to African Americans is validating my skepticism that their campaign can effectively motivate turnout in that critical community in the general election season.

I also think it cheapens the claim at a time when the general election opponent for whoever the nominee is will be an administration that hired legitimate, real, full-blown, dyed in the wool white supremacists like Seb Gorka, Steve Bannon, and Stephen Miller.
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  #20664  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Refute the evidence provided. Simply making a declaration doesn't make it so. It's of even less value coming from you. "Systemic racism doesn't exist" & "Confederate Monuments aren't racist".

Joe Biden has a career marked by multiple instances of him not only supporting but being the leader for policies that worsened systemic racism.

His own words when asked about the legacy of slavery are pretty damned racist and would have ended other candidacies.

But you've already proven that you have almost no understanding of racism, so I'm not sure why I bothered to type this in reply.
You didn't provide evidence, just conjecture. Supporting laws that end up hitting some demographics harder than others, isn't necessarily proof on it's own that the support was racially motivated. From what I've read, Biden had good justifications that weren't racially motivated for all of the offenses you provided. That may not hit all of the ideological predilections you want, but it doesn't make him a racist either.

The rest of your post about me is not represented well and it makes me a little sad that you would think those things, but at least I know your feelings going forward.
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  #20665  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:32 AM
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Biden's support and crafting of the crack vs cocaine legislation, was ill-advised, but I have a hard time seeing the evidence that it was racially motivated to target blacks, and not something that the black community wanted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...2c7_story.html
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  #20666  
Old 01-11-2020, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
Biden's support and crafting of the crack vs cocaine legislation, was ill-advised, but I have a hard time seeing the evidence that it was racially motivated to target blacks, and not something that the black community wanted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...2c7_story.html
Listen, I've already stated that I don't believe Biden to be a virulent racist. He had contemporaries who explained that his policy positions would harm marginalized groups. Paternalistic racism is the kind of racism that led to the kidnapping of native children and forcing them to be raised Christian. Done with the best intentions, racist as fuck.

Also, he's known that the policies he pushed/voted for are now considered racist in their effects. He was told at the time he was pushing/voting for them that they'd harm.

Malevolent racism is not what I accused Biden of. I agree with you that he lacks the malicious intent to be considered this. He's racist like my grandmother was, only with a lot more power to affect the lives of many more people than she did.

You can tell he's a paternalistic (well-intentioned) racist by his response to the Legacy of Slavery question in that debate.

So, I'm going to judge people by their deeds. Joe Biden's deeds have, regardless of his intent, had horrible repercussions for a multitude of people across generations and are still being felt to this day. He wasn't alone in his support of tougher sentencing for crack cocaine. Thousands of African-American community leaders felt the same way. Of course, thousands of other AA community leaders disagreed with them at the time. You can't prohibition and punish your way out of a public health and poverty and systemic racism issue. The War on Drugs was racist in its inception under Nixon. It was only exacerbated by legislators like Biden. It was known to be racist when Nixon did it.

Pete, you're going to have to stop constantly reframing my arguments so you can attack something I never claimed. Biden is not a white supremacist. Mayor Pete isn't a white supremacist. What they are is comfortable power serving (never questioning) liberals. They both operate in a framework of white supremacy. There are accepted norms in this framework and they adhere to them religiously. So, the solutions for the crack epidemic were limited to that framework as well. There were contemporaries for Biden who saw that the solution wouldn't be found in an inherently racist and white supremacist framework. If you are comfortable with this framework, vote for Biden. He's a product of it. Buttigieg is just a psychopath who will adopt any skin that fits well enough for him to climb the ladder. He donned a Navy uniform to pad his resume as well.

Pete, I also find it amusing that you believe that either the Buttigieg or Biden campaigns have had ANY meaningful outreach to the AA Community. It's laughable that you'd even claim it. Biden has no ground game as he's basically been riding on name recognition and the glow of Obama. Buttigieg flat out lied about endorsements for his Marshall Plan of Pandering requesting that people opt out by end of business or there non-reply would be considered an endorsement.

I'm not going to contest that Trump's admin is responsible for hiring full-blown white nationalist racists. I'm saying that we have a chance to address the pandering/paternalistic racism of white liberalism by NOT choosing Biden. We have a chance to be anti-racist. Voting for Biden is reinforcing the existent white supremacy that's baked into the cake. Also, we get a chance to vote for the first Jewish President or the first woman President. I think Warren is inferior because of her foreign policy and her entire theory of change, but she's a damn sight better than Biden or Buttigieg.

Another thing. Sanders, as Dr. Cornell West has said, has lived a life seeking justice for those who haven't received it. He's lived his whole adult life seeking it and hasn't sold out in order to find it. The other candidates simply cannot say the same thing.
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Last edited by ZeykShade; 01-11-2020 at 02:12 AM.
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  #20667  
Old 01-11-2020, 02:20 AM
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Here's a thought experiment.

Let's say that we know for a fact that any of the top 4 Democratic Candidates will win the General Election vs. Trump by the same exact margin with all of the same down-ballot implications and a record turnout.

Who do you nominate?

Biden
Buttigieg
Sanders
Warren

?

Why? Why not the others?
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  #20668  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:53 AM
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Default Remembering Barack Obama's Risky, Unelectable, McGovern-Like 2008 Candidacy

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...electable.html
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  #20669  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Here's a thought experiment.

Let's say that we know for a fact that any of the top 4 Democratic Candidates will win the General Election vs. Trump by the same exact margin with all of the same down-ballot implications and a record turnout.

Who do you nominate?

Biden
Buttigieg
Sanders
Warren

?

Why? Why not the others?
Warren.

Because she’s served in both the Legislative and Executive Branches and I think has a better grasp on the details of how to actually execute progressive policies. I also trust her more than Sanders to hire competent foreign policy people, which I think is the blind spot of the progressive wing of the party.

Buttigieg (who my phone just autocorrected to “but yogurt” which is rude) is not qualified to the POTUS. You cannot/should not be able to go from mayor of a small Midwestern town to POTUS. It’s too big a leap in experience.

Head to head Biden versus Sanders is a dicier call for me. Biden’s plusses are that he has the experience necessary to rebuild the Executive from the inside out and start to repair the damage Trump is doing at State, Justice, etc. He also has instant credibility with foreign leaders in repairing our relationships in institutions like NATO, etc. Sanders is better on domestic policy, but I’m skeptical about his ability to implement it and I remain moderately scared about what a Sanders foreign policy looks like.

Look at it this way:

Warren: High ceiling, low floor
Biden: Low ceiling, high floor
Sanders: High ceiling, very low floor
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  #20670  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Listen, I've already stated that I don't believe Biden to be a virulent racist. He had contemporaries who explained that his policy positions would harm marginalized groups. Paternalistic racism is the kind of racism that led to the kidnapping of native children and forcing them to be raised Christian. Done with the best intentions, racist as fuck.

Also, he's known that the policies he pushed/voted for are now considered racist in their effects. He was told at the time he was pushing/voting for them that they'd harm.

Malevolent racism is not what I accused Biden of. I agree with you that he lacks the malicious intent to be considered this. He's racist like my grandmother was, only with a lot more power to affect the lives of many more people than she did.

You can tell he's a paternalistic (well-intentioned) racist by his response to the Legacy of Slavery question in that debate.

So, I'm going to judge people by their deeds. Joe Biden's deeds have, regardless of his intent, had horrible repercussions for a multitude of people across generations and are still being felt to this day. He wasn't alone in his support of tougher sentencing for crack cocaine. Thousands of African-American community leaders felt the same way. Of course, thousands of other AA community leaders disagreed with them at the time. You can't prohibition and punish your way out of a public health and poverty and systemic racism issue. The War on Drugs was racist in its inception under Nixon. It was only exacerbated by legislators like Biden. It was known to be racist when Nixon did it.

Pete, you're going to have to stop constantly reframing my arguments so you can attack something I never claimed. Biden is not a white supremacist. Mayor Pete isn't a white supremacist. What they are is comfortable power serving (never questioning) liberals. They both operate in a framework of white supremacy. There are accepted norms in this framework and they adhere to them religiously. So, the solutions for the crack epidemic were limited to that framework as well. There were contemporaries for Biden who saw that the solution wouldn't be found in an inherently racist and white supremacist framework. If you are comfortable with this framework, vote for Biden. He's a product of it. Buttigieg is just a psychopath who will adopt any skin that fits well enough for him to climb the ladder. He donned a Navy uniform to pad his resume as well.

Pete, I also find it amusing that you believe that either the Buttigieg or Biden campaigns have had ANY meaningful outreach to the AA Community. It's laughable that you'd even claim it. Biden has no ground game as he's basically been riding on name recognition and the glow of Obama. Buttigieg flat out lied about endorsements for his Marshall Plan of Pandering requesting that people opt out by end of business or there non-reply would be considered an endorsement.

I'm not going to contest that Trump's admin is responsible for hiring full-blown white nationalist racists. I'm saying that we have a chance to address the pandering/paternalistic racism of white liberalism by NOT choosing Biden. We have a chance to be anti-racist. Voting for Biden is reinforcing the existent white supremacy that's baked into the cake. Also, we get a chance to vote for the first Jewish President or the first woman President. I think Warren is inferior because of her foreign policy and her entire theory of change, but she's a damn sight better than Biden or Buttigieg.

Another thing. Sanders, as Dr. Cornell West has said, has lived a life seeking justice for those who haven't received it. He's lived his whole adult life seeking it and hasn't sold out in order to find it. The other candidates simply cannot say the same thing.
Everything you’re claiming is based on the assumption that decisions were made void of context and zeitgeist two, three, four plus decades ago. Society hasn’t remained static and neither has Biden. The idea that somehow Biden wouldn’t be functionally for things like criminal justice reform, etc. in 2021, is ludicrous. He and the times have changed and evolved and the African American community knows it, which is why they still support the guy.

And I think when you indulge in the kind of strident rhetoric you have about Biden and Buttigeg, you’re painting them with the same broad paintbrush as the Trump folks, which is brutally unfair. You can’t tell me with a straight face that any Democratic nominee in this field wouldn’t be 3,000,000x better on the issue of race.

And, to go a step further, this is one of those items where I think partisans trapped in the box of the primary campaign silly season lose the forest for the trees. You’re amplifying really modest policy distinctions on a raft of issues as if they’re the end all be all, fighting over a few inches on the left side of the political spectrum, when the other guys are miles to the right on the opposite side of the scale. I’m not getting overly bent out of shape over minor ideological distinctions because, all chips down, all these Democrats are for the same things: universal health care, equality and justice, etc. They have disagreements about how to achieve those broad goals and the timetables to get to them, but functionally they’re for a lot of the exact same things and that’s 3,000,000x better than a Republican Party that seems hell bent on burning democracy down in an irrational overreaction to an evolving/emerging secular, multi-racial, non-patriarchical society.
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