BoltProspects Community Forums  

Go Back   BoltProspects Community Forums > Miscellaneous > The Room

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #19921  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:18 PM
Donnie D's Avatar
Donnie D Donnie D is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sarasota
Posts: 10,353
Default

Increase the rate on the rich. Institute a modest one time wealth tax (Gates himself was ok with 20%.)

But a 90%+ taxon wealth is crazy.
__________________
"In 2016, there were Republicans concerned about the 'reality show' president, but in 2020, there are Republicans concerned about the reality of the president,
  #19922  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:42 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie D View Post
Increase the rate on the rich. Institute a modest one time wealth tax (Gates himself was ok with 20%.)

But a 90%+ taxon wealth is crazy.
I love that you're even open to a wealth tax. I disagree with you on the amount. I also disagree with giving any weight to how much the thieves think they should be taxed. It really is up to the people they've stolen from to decide what's fair.

Again, it wasn't illegal at the time they stole it because they made sure it wasn't by buying our democracy. It used to be illegal to gamble with bank customer money too. It should have been illegal. We were all duped into thinking it wasn't.

If you made the 1x percentage 50% and then make the estate tax take a boatload more, I'm with you.

As an example, under Sanders wealth tax and estate tax plans, Michael Bloomberg would have paid $4B more last year and his estate would pay $36B. For the record, he's worth $53B. So his poor heirs would have to make do with ~$9-13Billion. It's also incredibly difficult for a sane human being to ever spend more than $400million in a lifetime. Hell, Trump is proof of that. He's clearly not sane and he started out with half a billion of daddy's money(and money he bilked from his brother), failed in the casino business repeatedly, failed in the hotel business repeatedly AND still has millions/billions. It's bananas how rigged this is.
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht

Last edited by ZeykShade; 11-07-2019 at 08:48 PM.
  #19923  
Old 11-07-2019, 09:38 PM
Donnie D's Avatar
Donnie D Donnie D is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sarasota
Posts: 10,353
Default

Thieves? Stolen? That’s just absurd.

Those Microsoft programmers and engineers have been underpaid slaves working for the proletariat. Give me a fucking break. No more than a one time 20% tax.

Talk about stealing. You would be the thief penalizing hard work, innovation and management skills.
__________________
"In 2016, there were Republicans concerned about the 'reality show' president, but in 2020, there are Republicans concerned about the reality of the president,
  #19924  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:09 PM
the_narrow_way's Avatar
the_narrow_way the_narrow_way is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 5,215
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Oh and Bernie's staff also did the math on what their wealth tax would have done to Bill Gates if he'd have paid it since 1982...He'd still be worth $9.98B.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
I really need evidence to support that taking 95% of someones net worth(the 100 billion from Gates example), is over the top?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie D View Post
Taking $100 billion from Gates is beyond obscene.
I think you both saw the first set of numbers and just reacted from there. The number Zeyk cited was if the plan was in place since '82 but he also said that this rate of taxation of the wealthy would not be permanent and would go down over time once the new systems were funded and working.
  #19925  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:15 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie D View Post
Thieves? Stolen? That’s just absurd.

Those Microsoft programmers and engineers have been underpaid slaves working for the proletariat. Give me a fucking break. No more than a one time 20% tax.

Talk about stealing. You would be the thief penalizing hard work, innovation and management skills.
Strawman. Microsoft employees aren't Bill Gates.

Wages earned through their labor aren't theft. Stock value gains that have ballooned because of a system that M$ and other tech giants have used monopolistic power and lobbying to increase are theft. Theft from all of us. Particularly when you consider that the Fortune 500 has received $63B in taxpayer subsidies in the last two decades.

Let's not talk about Arpanet and Darpanet. Think M$ made any money off of the publicly financed research that created the Internet? You think Bill Gates created Excel? Word? Windows? The fact of the matter is, by the time Windows 95 was released, Bill Gates wasn't coding anything. He was running the business side of M$. Monopolies don't create themselves.

You may also want to rethink making Gates out to be some kind of hero. Gary Kildall was the pioneer behind CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). It's likely his code that was at the heart of MSDOS. Even if you don't believe that and want to think that Gates created MSDOS, you'd be wrong. He bought QDOS from Seatle Computer Products for $75k and hired a programmer to modify it. Then he licensed it to IBM as PC-DOS. The genius of folks like Gates and Jobs isn't in the coding and creation of a product. It's in seeing the angles and how they can extract wealth from the labor of others. This is capitalism.

So from the start, Gates exploited the innovative creativity of others to create profit. Does this mean he didn't work hard at it? No. But let's not get it twisted that he was some lone genius doing all of the work to create MS-DOS and Windows. Let's also not forget that almost all of the computer technology he built his business on came from innovation paid for by taxpayers through the funding of public research universities and the military.
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht
  #19926  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:15 PM
dannybolt's Avatar
dannybolt dannybolt is offline
Curtis McElhinney's Game Worn Jersey
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Pete
Posts: 2,138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
What would end up happening is, in the short term, you'd get a spike in revenue that you would use for your front-end setup costs for programs like single payer health care, one-off infrastructure projects, etc. In the long run, what you'd end up doing is bringing back the 1950's.
https://rooseveltinstitute.org/effec...as hell.<br />
Maybe. I think you could get there by increasing marginal rates a chunk and removing the distinction between earned and invested income (i.e., capital gains treated same as earned income), which would be more difficult to circumvent, and politically easier to pass (IMO, but speculation obv). That would put the governor on the ambitions of the wealthy, I would think. I'd also be amenable to a cap on the multiple that executives can be paid over their lowest paid employee, but I'm not dumb enough to think that workarounds wouldn't quickly be exploited.

I should specify that I would prefer that tax revenue actually go down at the federal level, and that state and local taxes should go up because I think what most people on the left want done at the federal level is more effectively conducted at the state and local level. Plus, the farther away you get from your house, the less accountable the government gets. It's a hell of a lot easier to get in front of your mayor or state congressman than it is anyone representing you at the federal level. But I digress.

Quote:
Another example, dude who ran WeWork (a company which has been failing, losing money and over fist, and will likely never make a profit) got a $1.7B golden parachute.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/persp...ork/index.html
Adam Neumann is goddamn hero. He took a ridiculous business idea, basically being the world's douchiest sublessor at scale, and ripped off venture capitalists to the better part of two billion dollars. His company wasn't even a going concern except that VCs continued to throw good money after bad, had no path to profitability, and their biggest balance sheet item was leasehold obligations. Hilarious. I'd be furious if I was a SoftBank shareholder, though. I think it is remarkeable that so many companies think they can follow the amazon model where you have a decade or so of losses in order to hit scale and then you can ramp precipitously. Companies like Uber (another big investment by SoftBank, natch) and WeWork lose more money the more they scale up. And knowing that, a bank gave them more money. If you can't see how hysterically funny that is, I don't know what to tell you. I'm laughing my ass off at those window lickers. They are supposed to be the most sophisticated investors. Whoopsies!

It would be different if it went through the IPO, because then it would have exposed retail investors to the fraud, but once anyone with any sense kicked the tires, they realized the whole thing was idiotic. Not SoftBank though, they doubled down. Sooner or later the market will come for them though, and that's the whole point. Now, you want to argue that SoftBank's CEO should be fired with no golden parachute, now you've got some stick.

Sidenote: BoltNJ and I are starting a business called WeEat. We are going to cut out the UberEats middle man. It's a brick and mortar building where you go to and give us money, and we give you food. We are elevating the world's palette consciousness. PM me for investing information. XD

Quote:
The widening gap between haves and have-nots is in no small part due to the manipulation of the tax code to favor the filthy rich that has continued unabated over the past 38 or so years. We no longer have a truly progressive tax structure, and the wealth tax would be a return to the New Deal tradition of progressivity that set the stage for the United States' modern economic emergence as a super power.
The widening gap between haves and have-nots is due more to the capturing of markets and lowered competition for labor than it is to the manipulation of the tax code, IMO. Also, the usage of tax havens (which is what I assume you are referring to, instead of the US tax code, which isn't nearly as "manipulatable" as you imply) is a byproduct of not having a global tax framework. Because, y'know, different countries making their own laws and all. Good news, the OECD's BEPS initiatives are continuing to close the loopholes that those types of structures make available, but as long as there is the incentive to get a tiny slice of a bunch of revenue vs a huge slice of nothing much at all, there will be arbitrage opportunities.

Note, I am not covering things like the Panama Papers and outright tax fraud, because that isn't manipulating the code, that's breaking the law. And that's an entirely different argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
I don't give a fuck if you don't like the analogy.
Right on man, I always assumed the axiom about catching flies with honey works better than vinegar, but maybe you cracked the code. I've been wrong before.

If alienating anyone who might be remotely sympathetic to your arguments is the goal of your argumentation methodology, brother, I say stay the course.
__________________
Bullshit Centrist and Ondrej Palat fan club member
  #19927  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:18 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/06/...-disobedience/
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht
  #19928  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:26 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybolt View Post
Right on man, I always assumed the axiom about catching flies with honey works better than vinegar, but maybe you cracked the code. I've been wrong before.

If alienating anyone who might be remotely sympathetic to your arguments is the goal of your argumentation methodology, brother, I say stay the course.
Tone policing. Fun stuff. Don't have the inclination to be cordial when a simple analogy that's simple to understand is compared to right-wing wingnuttery.

And if you're concerned with tone on a message board, wonder what you'll think of the fascist that replaces Trump, but knows what they're doing. How about the next wave of socialists after that? Historically, there have been much harsher consequences of prolonged income/wealth inequality.

Must be convenient to be able to clutch your pearls and dismiss valid information. I need only point at Trump's victory to indicate that shit is bad, the current economic system is why, and shit needs to change or it's going to be much worse. If you like Cormack McCarthy novels and wish to live one, keep clutching those pearls.
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht

Last edited by ZeykShade; 11-07-2019 at 10:46 PM.
  #19929  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:49 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default

https://twitter.com/i/status/1079870178077433858

That's tough to watch.

Anyone care to guess what economic system caused the people of Flint, MI to have polluted water and STILL have polluted water?

https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/healt...gan/index.html hope that's not too left-wing a source.
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht

Last edited by ZeykShade; 11-07-2019 at 10:55 PM.
  #19930  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:55 PM
Donnie D's Avatar
Donnie D Donnie D is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sarasota
Posts: 10,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
https://twitter.com/i/status/1079870178077433858

That's tough to watch.

Anyone care to guess what economic system caused the people of Flint, MI to have polluted water and STILL have polluted water?
That’s a really bad argument for you Zeyk. It was a government run utility, not the private sector, that caused the problem in Flint. So I guess it would be socialism.

If we want to play this game, which economic system caused Chernobyl?
__________________
"In 2016, there were Republicans concerned about the 'reality show' president, but in 2020, there are Republicans concerned about the reality of the president,

Last edited by Donnie D; 11-07-2019 at 11:01 PM.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2008, BoltProspects.com. All Rights Reserved.