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  #10801  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BurnTHalO View Post
Remember when he claimed to be a moderate?
Not just a moderate, he actually claimed to be an Independent.

But, you know, Bill O'Reilly used to claim to be an Independent, too.
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  #10802  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dannybolt View Post
Fair warning: this is a LONG post, mostly because it touches on maybe the only thing I care about more than the Lightning and my family: Tax and economic policy. I apologize in advance, but hopefully you all will get something out of it.


Let me preface all of the below with the fact that I haven't had a lot of time to dig into that site yet. That said, I can tell you the first figure of the first document I opened said something to the effect that tax compliance costs the average business $74 an hour, without any support. I'll dig further, but that's not a good start, since it doesn't provide a total cost, how many hours, etc. It also doesn't explain that a company like G.M. probably pays a lot more than that, while the mechanic down the street pays a whole lot less than that per hour. It looked pretty light on real documentation, or relies on specious documentation, like those sites that say you can avoid paying income tax because the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified by the states. Lots of squishy math and promises, not a lot of hard detail.

Another red flag for me is that you say this group is a reasearch group who polled a bunch of people...how many of them were accountants? Better yet, how many worked at Treasury? See my response to Zeyk below for more color on that point.

I'd also be interested to know what the goal of the non-partisan group of economists actually was. Many economists think things like the mortgage deduction are a bad idea, which is one of the most popular individual deductions. They also dislike corporate subsidies for farmers, and oil and gas, because things like national security interest may not be factored into their decision making. What I'm getting at is that a team of non-partisan economists sounds great, but you really need more information.

Taxes is not the reason why companies don't manufacture in the U.S. Not at all. Wage costs is the reason. The only way you bring manufacturing back to the U.S. Is through lowering wages further (not going to happen), or pushing import tariffs up to the point where our labor becomes competitive. Which would incite a trade war with all of Asia, and would get us in massive trouble with the WTA. Oh yeah, if tariffs go up, so does the cost of pretty much everything. Or if the cost of sipping outstrips the cost of manufacturing.

Further, yes, cash is kept off-shore because it would be taxed when brought back on-shore. That said, the cost of Capital has been cheap for a long, long time. If your cost of Capital is near 0 (and it is with the interest deduction), then any manufacturing investment would have already occurred. Changing the tax code will make only a marginal difference in encouraging U.S. manufacturing, at least as far as I have seen. The reason cash has been kept off-shore is two-fold: firms don't want to blow their APB23 assertions, and investors (rightly) don't want to be taxed when it is onshored and then again when it is distributed as a dividend.

Where taxes does get you some play, is WITHIN the U.S., where states and local municipalities give tax breaks to companies to move production to certain areas. I guess the U.S. could do like Singapore or Mexico and give companies a 0% tax rate to set up Principal structures, but even then, you are still competing on wages against cost of shipping and labor vs. internal labor.

It is possible that high skilled manufacturing, like what Germany has in its industrial base could flourish in the U.S., but again, that isn't really a tax issue, its more of a culture and education thing.


This might have gotten missed, but it is the salient point in the discussion on the Fair Tax, as well as the Flat Tax, and it illustrates my biggest problem with those two ideas, as well as beautifully illustrates why our tax code is so complicated.

The Fair Tax (and Flat for this example), are trying to apply a simple solution to a wildly complicated situation. Zeyk rightly points out an inherent flaw, and he chose some of the lowest hanging fruit. Capital vs Labor (earned) income. Here's a few more, just off the top of my head:
- What about non-cash transactions? What if I give you a note (loan) instead of cash when I buy your business? Or vice versa?
What about like kind exchanges? If I trade you a car for a house? Is that taxed?
- What about timing differences? Construction firms have massive up-front costs. If they have to drop an extra 20% on top, and have no accelerated depreciation, well, you've just put a serious damper on the construction industry.
- What if I pay up front for a contract that will be executed over the course of several years? I have to pay all the tax for that up front?
- How about I give you a non-arms length loan for an asset, and then forgive the debt once you've paid all the "interest"?
- What if I sell you my car for $1 and your boat? Is that really a 20 cent transaction?
- Do I have to pay sales tax if one of my subsidiaries sells a part to another of my subsidiaries? That's really more a VAT than a sales tax. What if I sell it for a penny? Are we getting rid of Transfer Pricing as well?

The tax code is incredibly complicated because business in a globalized economy is incredibly complicated. If you want to go back to an agrarian society, you could probably really simplify the code. But then again, that brings bartering into the conversation, so maybe not.

Again, just spitballing off the top of my head. I totally get the appeal of the FairTax. The problem with those plans is that a bluntly simple tax code is only appropriate for taxpayers who don't own property, their own business, and whose revenue is solely derived from their paychecks, without crazy things like 401Ks or HSAs.

Fly likely understands this better than I do, my background is in International and Corporate planning, he's got a lot more experience in small business and individual tax.

All that said, I will do more research on the Fair Tax site, but I am a severe skeptic of these types of one size fits all easy solutions. I have worked in accounting and finance for three years in a big 4 accounting firm, for 10 plus years in closely held family firms, and currently closing on a year in a fortune 200 manufacturing company. I've seen why the code is so complicated.
Long and well thought out; there are myriad complications that simply can not be “fairly” addressed in a simple system of taxation.

Don’t believe that a “fair tax” system would simplify the work tax professionals perform; just modify it. One of my clients is about to be audited by the FL DOR for Sales Tax compliance. Sounds simple, right. Hardly. This is their second time in 7 years, last time took 8 months and the FL DOR found that they did not pay sales tax on supplies that were intermingled with items for resale. Client paid the grand sum of $472! $472 after 8 months work. And here we go again, wasting more time and effort.

Audits and other compliance checks would be a new frontier for the IRS (still using Windows 95/98 as their O/S) and tax professionals. The IRS is underfunded, understaffed, and are generally of a lower level of competence than the representation of those being audited.

Fair Tax will encourage even more cash (huh? No cash here...) transactions than currently are unreported. This is not an issue for for the type of business entities Danny deals with, but I deal with a number of businesses that gross 15-100k per month. They undoubtedly skim cash and are smart enough to stay below the radar. Unless the Fair Tax people advocate a cashless society revenues will mysteriously fall.

Dear leaders comment on healthcare applies to taxation as well. To paraphrase, “Healthcare is really complicated. Who knew?” Ummm...lots of us.

Last edited by Flycoon; 11-17-2017 at 10:28 PM.
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  #10803  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:18 AM
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WaiverWire WaiverWire is offline
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Typical right winger. Thinks all problems are solved by secession.
HAHAHAHAHAHA and you claim to have me on your ignore list.....just another lie huh petie.

No, I am not wishing Florida to leave the US........life would be great if California left. They are the one's talking about doing just that.

Last edited by WaiverWire; 11-19-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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  #10804  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:22 AM
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WaiverWire WaiverWire is offline
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Originally Posted by BurnTHalO View Post
Remember when he claimed to be a moderate?
Yup I am. But it sure doesn't take much for how far left your party has moved.

Seems you forget that I am one of a few on this site that wish congress would come together and act like the body they truly are and enact legislation that will benefit the people and not a few select groups.

As long as we have the alt right wing and bible thumpers and the far left Bernie/Warren lovers this will never happen.

Last edited by WaiverWire; 11-19-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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  #10805  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by WaiverWire View Post
HAHAHAHAHAHA and you claim to have me on your ignore list.....just another lie huh petie.

No, I am not wishing Florida lefts the US........life would be great if California left. They are the one's talking about doing just that.
Just out of curiosity, how would you replace all the taxes they bring in?
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  #10806  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:56 AM
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BurnTHalO BurnTHalO is offline
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Originally Posted by WaiverWire View Post
Up I am. But it sure doesn't take much for how far left your party has moved.

Seems you forget that I am one of a few on this site that wish congress would come together and act like the body they truly are and enact legislation that will benefit the people and not a few select groups.

As long as we have the alt right wing and bible thumpers and the far left Bernie/Warren lovers this will never happen.
No i remember you claiming that. I also remember you saying a left state should leave the country and that anyone in charge is better than someone from the left. I also remember how fine you were with a moderate judge not being confirmed.
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  #10807  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BurnTHalO View Post
No i remember you claiming that. I also remember you saying a left state should leave the country and that anyone in charge is better than someone from the left. I also remember how fine you were with a moderate judge not being confirmed.
Your definition of moderate and mine are not the same. My definition of moderate is one that is in the middle of the right or left.

Your definition of moderate is those on the left that are not super liberal which moves the bar farther to the left.

I would never support the bible thumping right just like I would never support those on the left that want everything for free.

As for California.......sometimes you have to give up something in order to advance forward.
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  #10808  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:19 PM
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pete pete is offline
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Originally Posted by BurnTHalO View Post
No i remember you claiming that. I also remember you saying a left state should leave the country and that anyone in charge is better than someone from the left. I also remember how fine you were with a moderate judge not being confirmed.
All salient points to recall the next time he lies about being a moderate and also the next time he tries to lecture someone like Zeyk of being intolerant of those with different political positions. Here is a man literally saying that because Californians donít share his political views they should secede from the United States, living up to every progressive stereotype of right wingers who solely want to use states rights as a weapon to commit political terrorism.

Now, in fairness, I donít believe Waiver is an ideologue. That would mean he has some sort of core beliefs and moral compass, and the last year has proven he doesnít (for the most part... Iíll give credit in that it doesnít appear heís defended serial pedophilia in Alabama the same way he has defended all of the rest of the GOPís excesses, but I digress). What Waiver is confirmed to be is a 1,000% mostly unthinking partisan hack who will support anything with a (R) behind it out of tribal loyalty that supersedes his loyalty to country. Bigly and sad!
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  #10809  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BurnTHalO View Post
Just out of curiosity, how would you replace all the taxes they bring in?
I'm all for raising the tax on the upper income makers. I would even go as high as 50%.........how's that for someone that others call alt right wing?
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  #10810  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pete View Post
All salient points to recall the next time he lies about being a moderate and also the next time he tries to lecture someone like Zeyk of being intolerant of those with different political positions. Here is a man literally saying that because Californians donít share his political views they should secede from the United States, living up to every progressive stereotype of right wingers who solely want to use states rights as a weapon to commit political terrorism.

Now, in fairness, I donít believe Waiver is an ideologue. That would mean he has some sort of core beliefs and moral compass, and the last year has proven he doesnít (for the most part... Iíll give credit in that it doesnít appear heís defended serial pedophilia in Alabama the same way he has defended all of the rest of the GOPís excesses, but I digress). What Waiver is confirmed to be is a 1,000% mostly unthinking partisan hack who will support anything with a (R) behind it out of tribal loyalty that supersedes his loyalty to country. Bigly and sad!

Are you really that dumb petie? All I have said is that I hope California gets their wish. They are the one's that are bring up the talk of having a referendum to secede. Please show us all where I ever said this was about California not being in tuned to my political values?

Yup, just another lie from petie.
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