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  #13601  
Old 06-16-2018, 03:12 PM
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The US has not separated children from their parents at the borders and thrown them in wire mesh cages. Untrue.

And, the whole point of being on the human rights council is to have a seat at the table from which to lead. You canít be a leader if you arenít in the room, just like you canít be a leader if you donít even put those issues on the table when dealing with a scumbag like North Koreaís dictator.

I find the never ending self flagellation about the past to be tedious. You think America has done wrong in the past? Great. How long do we all have to collectively wear our itchy shirts before the penance is considered paid on and we can move onto addressing the human rights abuses instead of bitching and moaning about what a bunch of sinners weíve been?

Keeping it real time:

You want to know why blue collar people canít fucking stand a certain stripe of progressives? Thatís why. Because itís not enough to care about an issue and express concern about it. ďNo, you didnít care about it 5-10 years ago, so that makes your concerns not as valid.Ē Sweet Jesus, itís as arrogant and juvenile as when a band becomes famous and thereís always a clique of their fans who tut tuts the new fans because they somehow arrived at liking the band the wrong way. We all agree the US should be a leader in human rights. We all agree children shouldnít be separated from their parents and thrown in wire cages. Donít fucking slap away people who want to join your coalition because, ďYou never never listened to Human Rightsí first album when it first came out.Ē Christ, that makes you sound like a total dick.
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  #13602  
Old 06-16-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pete View Post
The US has not separated children from their parents at the borders and thrown them in wire mesh cages. Untrue.Good thing you added the "borders" qualifier. That way the Native American children ripped from their families and sent to boarding schools and prevented form speaking their own languages don't count.

And, the whole point of being on the human rights council is to have a seat at the table from which to lead. You canít be a leader if you arenít in the room, just like you canít be a leader if you donít even put those issues on the table when dealing with a scumbag like North Koreaís dictator. (Leaders like Saudi Arabia, Russia and China? My point is the US pays lip service to leading. We have no real moral authority to lead anymore. )

I find the never-ending self-flagellation about the past (very recent past and present) to be tedious. You think America has done wrong in the past? Great. How long do we all have to collectively wear our itchy shirts before the penance is considered paid on and we can move onto addressing the human rights abuses instead of bitching and moaning about what a bunch of sinners weíve been? I dunno, how long do we have to wear our itchy shirts about slavery and Jim Crow? I say we wear them until the same injustices that were committed in the past no longer affect the present and future.

Keeping it real time:

You want to know why blue collar people canít fucking stand a certain stripe of progressives? Thatís why. Because itís not enough to care about an issue and express concern about it. ďNo, you didnít care about it 5-10 years ago, so that makes your concerns not as valid.Ē Sweet Jesus, itís as arrogant and juvenile as when a band becomes famous and thereís always a clique of their fans who tut tuts the new fans because they somehow arrived at liking the band the wrong way. We all agree the US should be a leader in human rights. We all agree children shouldnít be separated from their parents and thrown in wire cages. Donít fucking slap away people who want to join your coalition because, ďYou never never listened to Human Rightsí first album when it first came out.Ē Christ, that makes you sound like a total dick.
You wanna know why lots of blue collar people voted for Trump in the first place? Certain types of Democrats who put a nice face on committing the same types of atrocities and perpetuating the injustices in the World then get to be outraged at a guy doing the same shit this country has done for its entire history in an uncouth and more callous manner.

When was the US a leader in human rights? Was that when we supported Apartheid in South Africa? Are we leading in Venezuela? Are we leading in Yemen? How about Rwanda? How about 1950s Iran? How about at all those nice blacksites we let our dictator friends run for Bush? Gitmo?

I really don't care if you think I'm a dick. I think this is the perfect time to reflect on what the US really is. I don't disagree with you that Trump is awful and needs to be stopped pretty much by any means necessary. I'm gonna continue to point out the flaws of this country. I'm going to continue to point out that they aren't new. I'm not doing so to diminish your legitimate issues with the Trump Administration. I'm glad that folks are paying attention to them now.

Don't take me pointing all of this out as a way to diminish your outrage toward Trump. It's really not meant as "whataboutism". If you wanna call me the dickish hipster with regard to America fucking the World for its corporate interests, I'll take it though. Plenty of other stupid shit to be a hipster dick about that aren't nearly as important. Your analogy breaks down there in comparing the triviality of music fandom to human rights/justice fandom.
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  #13603  
Old 06-16-2018, 04:41 PM
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It's always nice to see Foxs' hypocrisy in plain view..Not that their loyal viewers remember OR care about the dissonance.

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPoli...jEzNTc3NDEzNw/
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  #13604  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:18 PM
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Giving people condescending lectures that they're ignorant for not believing the country they love is evil is a sure-fire way to win people over to your side. Genius political strategy.
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  #13605  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:39 PM
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Giving people condescending lectures that they're ignorant for not believing the country they love is evil is a sure-fire way to win people over to your side. Genius political strategy.
Ok, I'll dial up my outrage only when Trump does something atrocious. I'll ignore it when my side does similar and/or worse things. I won't look hypocritical at all! My credibility won't suffer in the least.

Remember, being ignorant is not a problem. If you feel condescended to when someone points out that Trump isn't doing new evil things, only doing them in a new way, that's on you. I don't have a political strategy other than being consistent in my criticism of bad things that this nation does in my name regardless of who is in power.

You can love your country in the way you want. I'm gonna love it in the way I want. People on this board can figure out for themselves. Also, if your genius political strategy results in getting us more of Obama, who just does atrocious things behind the silky smooth jams eloquence of a cool AF dad so we don't have to really think about or confront them, no thank you. You can take that political strategy and hellfire it with a drone at a wedding in Afghanistan.
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The problem with todayís world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense! - Brian Cox
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  #13606  
Old 06-16-2018, 06:51 PM
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Also, if your genius political strategy results in getting us more of Obama
As opposed to a hypothetical President McCain, who would've invaded Iran and sat with his thumb up his ass while the world's economy melted down. Keep pretending it's all the same, though.

I bet you probably think history would've gone off exactly the same if the Supreme Court hadn't installed Dubya in office, too.
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  #13607  
Old 06-16-2018, 08:05 PM
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As opposed to a hypothetical President McCain, who would've invaded Iran and sat with his thumb up his ass while the world's economy melted down. Keep pretending it's all the same, though.

I bet you probably think history would've gone off exactly the same if the Supreme Court hadn't installed Dubya in office, too.
Drop the strawmen pete, you're smarter than that.

Obama did a great job with the shit he was handed from Dubya. There's a reason I voted for him in 2008. McCain was a non-starter even before he chose Palin. Obama proved himself to be a technocratic 3rd way Dem instead of the progressive he campaigned as. He didn't get my vote in 2012.

You can critique an administration and still believe it was the far better choice at the time. I think Hillary would have been a far better choice than Trump. It's why I voted for her in the General Election. It doesn't mean I'd have enjoyed her continued support of an apartheid state in Israel, selling of cluster bombs to KSA, or her loving caress of Wall Street and Silicon Valley billionaires to the detriment of our Republic.

I voted for Clinton because of SCOTUS alone. Gorsuch is to the right of fucking Clarence Thomas.

You'd lose your bet btw. Of course, Dubya was terrible. I think Al Gore doesn't invade Iraq, but Dubya doesn't invade Iraq without people like Clinton supporting it and the media manufacturing consent to sell ads for the MIC and Oil Companies. My main position is consistent. Demand more from the left than they currently give so that when they give what they do, it'll be less Warhawk, less Pro-Business, more Pro-Worker, and better morally than it would if no one demanded it.

I'm not going to demand another Obama, even though another Obama would be fucking incredible compared to what we have now. I'm going to continue to seek what Obama campaigned as in 2008 + more. I'll always be disappointed but the Overton window will never move left if we keep settling for Pelosi, Schumer, Feinstein, Clinton et al.
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The problem with todayís world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.
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  #13608  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:27 PM
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Diane Feinstein, who you attack like sheís goddamned Atilla the Hunís concubine, is the current author of a Senate resolution to stop the Trump administration from taking kids from their parents and tossing them in wire cages. She has 40 co-sponsors. Not a damned one of them is a Republican. Now, can we stop the stilted rhetoric about a Democrat just because she doesnít meet your ideological purity tests? Politics is about building coalitions. Have disagreements about policy? Cool. Do it civilly. Donít label people who you need as allies as war criminals and monsters. You want to see a monster. Go ring up Stephen Miller. Diane Feinstein ainít Stephen Miller.
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  #13609  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:34 PM
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Nigel Farage is in big trouble because apparently the LeaveEU folks behind the Brexit vote have been caught passing confidential documents to the Russians during the campaign. In other words: collusion.

Farage went on to work as a spokesman for the Trump campaign and met with Julien Assange just before WikiLeaks started dumping the emails the Russians had stolen from the DNC. And, recall, Trump making bizarre Tweets about how soon the world would be calling him “Mr. Brexit.”

Put two and two together. There’s nothing new in what the Russians did to meddle in our election. They had already bought off a political party in France and manipulated the referendum in the UK to get them to leave the EU, along with screwing in the affairs of any number of other smaller Western democracies. And Trump knew it and welcomed their assistance to screw with our election with open arms. And you don’t even need to look very hard to figure out he knew it because “Mr. Brexit” broadcasted it to the world.
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  #13610  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by pete View Post
Diane Feinstein, who you attack like sheís goddamned Atilla the Hunís concubine, is the current author of a Senate resolution to stop the Trump administration from taking kids from their parents and tossing them in wire cages. She has 40 co-sponsors. Not a damned one of them is a Republican. Now, can we stop the stilted rhetoric about a Democrat just because she doesnít meet your ideological purity tests? Politics is about building coalitions. Have disagreements about policy? Cool. Do it civilly. Donít label people who you need as allies as war criminals and monsters. You want to see a monster. Go ring up Stephen Miller. Diane Feinstein ainít Stephen Miller.

You state that she's got 40, she's actually got 43 the last I read. None of whom are Rebublicans. How's her coalition building going? Sounds a lot like there's no building coalitions with this Trump Death Cult, so why do I need to support her re-election?

Again with the strawmen. I've never stated that the corporate-friendly, bought and paid for Democrats are monsters. Their coalition building skills are only on display when they vote to support GOP measures and GOP administrations. Your post reminds me of a Chris Rock bit, "I take care of my kids!!" "You're supposed to, what you want? A fuckin' cookie?"

It's easy to be anti-Trump. It's harder for Feinstein to do the right thing in other instances though, AUMF, NDAA, Medicare for All, etc.



Feinstein isn't Stephen Miller. Miller is a vile nazi just starting out in the World of Politics. Feinstein has had decades to impact the lives of Americans and the rest of the World. She chose to assist in the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the displacement of millions in the Middle East.

I can support Feinstein's Senate resolution to stop this barbaric Trump behavior and still think she's not the right person for the job anymore. She won't be getting my vote later this year. There is literally nothing she can do about it. She's not a monster, she's just great at building coalitions with the GOP when the GOP wants something that benefits her donors.

We've tried it the Donnie D way. It hasn't worked for shit. All it did was hand over the keys of a surveillance state to a fascist like Trump, lose a boatload of governorships, lose a boatload of state legislatures, lose the House of Representatives, lose the Senate and lose the White House. I just continue to marvel at folks who tell me to continue to support those responsible for this miraculously impressive losing.
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