BoltProspects Community Forums  

Go Back   BoltProspects Community Forums > Miscellaneous > The Room

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #17751  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:27 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
Like I said, the practicality of the model can be argued(I'm not in favor of it), I just don't think the argument that our founders made the decision out of ignorance works when it was the entire purpose of the system.

I'm pretty sure the Civil War covered going to the mattresses over the 3/5th compromise.
Bolded: Not really. It just spawned new ways to disenfranchise slaves and Descendants of Slaves. From Jim Crow to Mass Incarceration to Amendment 4 in FL being turned into a poll tax by the legislature. Giving convicts the right to vote isn't about the Boston Marathon Bomber or Dylan Roof, it's about the ~10million people per year who flow in and out of the Incarceration Complex for non-violent crimes. Crimes that the poor and brown are prosecuted for at a much higher rate than those who aren't poor and brown. Mass incarceration is voter suppression and that's what it's really always been about.
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht
  #17752  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:32 PM
ZeykShade's Avatar
ZeykShade ZeykShade is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,025
Default Rare truthfulness in a headline

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...m_campaign=nym
__________________
To those who do not know that the world is on fire, I have nothing to say. - Bertolt Brecht
  #17753  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:53 PM
RSchmitz's Avatar
RSchmitz RSchmitz is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,996
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Bolded: Not really. It just spawned new ways to disenfranchise slaves and Descendants of Slaves. From Jim Crow to Mass Incarceration to Amendment 4 in FL being turned into a poll tax by the legislature. Giving convicts the right to vote isn't about the Boston Marathon Bomber or Dylan Roof, it's about the ~10million people per year who flow in and out of the Incarceration Complex for non-violent crimes. Crimes that the poor and brown are prosecuted for at a much higher rate than those who aren't poor and brown. Mass incarceration is voter suppression and that's what it's really always been about.
Yes the actual law and not lingering residual effects of indoctrinated discrimination and racist state laws in the south was addressed with the Civil War. The voting rights act came straight out of the Civil War in 1965 which ended the 3/5ths compromise.
__________________
If no government system will guarantee a utopia, then our best choice is to look for the least exploitive one
  #17754  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:02 PM
dannybolt's Avatar
dannybolt dannybolt is offline
Curtis McElhinney's Game Worn Jersey
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Pete
Posts: 2,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
The argument isn't that the Senate isn't representative of the population of each state. The argument is that the entire idea of the Senate is counter to the idea of a representative democratic republic.
Disagree, but it may be semantics. If everything were based strictly on population, the citizens of those smaller states would effectively have no representation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
If we publicly funded all campaigns and actually made the currently legalized bribery, illegal, then we'd be a lot better off.
Don't disagree with any of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
The Senate would still be undemocratic, but it wouldn't be as intolerably unrepresentative of the will of the People as it is now and will be by 2040.
This assumes the will of the people is not contained within less populated states, doesn't it? IMO, you are looking in the wrong place for a solution to your problem. The House is that solution.
__________________
Bullshit Centrist and Ondrej Palat fan club member

Last edited by dannybolt; 05-07-2019 at 01:36 PM.
  #17755  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:06 PM
LightningTdi's Avatar
LightningTdi LightningTdi is offline
Keefamania!
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybolt View Post
Not sure what you are disagreeing with. The Senate was designed to have equal representation regardless of state population size. This was specifically done to prevent a tyranny of the majority; so big states like NY/FLA/TX/CA don't have the majority voice in the legislature by the nature of their population density. If you want the Senate to be represented proportionally, you don't really need the House of Representatives at that point.

The House is where the populace is supposed to be mirror the relative population levels, which it does. I think you could make the argument that more house seats should be added, because you have Wyoming with one house seat, giving it a more representation per capita, while more populated states have a lower per capita as there are only so many house seats to go around.

I don't understand where the criticism of the Senate for not being more representative of the number of people in said states is coming from, because it was never designed to do that. I don't complain that my microwave makes for a lousy dishwasher.
Senate was meant to represent the States and was to be elected by the State Legislatures...The House was meant to represent the people at the Federal level. The 17th Amendment is what screwed with that balance.

__________________
"...But the larger point I want to emphasize here is that there is no serious person out there who would suggest somehow that you could even ó you could even rig Americaís elections, in part, because they are so decentralized and the numbers of votes involved.

There is no evidence that that has happened in the past or that there are instances in which that will happen this time.
..."

Partial text of President Obama's October 18, 2016 Speech

  #17756  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:43 PM
pete's Avatar
pete pete is online now
BP Staff
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,424
Default

Quote:
This assumes the will of the people is not contained within less populated states.
The problem is that "the will of the people" is not a monolithic thing. We have, at a minimum, two distinct and very disparate countries that are growing even further apart by the day. They're not just geographically different, but urban/suburban America is demographically, economically, and culturally completely different that exurban/rural America. That's why there is no one-size-fits-all approach that easily creates a coalition that can govern this country peacefully, especially if you have dishonest actors in the soup who are willing to demagogue and foment racial, religious, class, and cultural animus for political gain.

I do believe that changes need to be made to make sure that these smaller exurban/rural communities aren't holding hostage progress in our larger urban/suburban communities. But, it's inherent in that bargain that there need to be investments made in making sure those exurban/rural communities aren't abandoned/left behind. The New Deal made those investments in things like the TVA. Similar investments need to be made in exurban/rural America but it needs to be made in a humble and collaborative way that doesn't exacerbate existing cultural resentments (some of which are actually legitimate).
__________________
S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-Stammermeter 2019-2020: 29
  #17757  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:05 PM
gphockey's Avatar
gphockey gphockey is offline
Brad Richard's Contract
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,587
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
.......I do believe that changes need to be made to make sure that these smaller exurban/rural communities aren't holding hostage progress in our larger urban/suburban communities. .....
Want to think out of the box, Divide the urban areas. Create more states with HEAVY urban areas into new states so urban areas do not affect rural areas so much.

From 50 to 70 for instance.
  #17758  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:14 PM
Donnie D's Avatar
Donnie D Donnie D is online now
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sarasota
Posts: 9,934
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSchmitz View Post
It's a fair argument to ask if the 2 senate per state system makes sense, it's not a great argument to say that our founding fathers didn't see this coming. The entire reason for the split legislative branch was to give power to the smaller and less populated states.
Thatís a myth perpetrated over time, because we donít want to tell our children that the entire ďgrand compromiseĒ has its basis in racism. (Canít tarnish the founding fathers by acknowledging that they were for the most part racists). It provided that slave states would have similar representation as free states. It also gave southern slave states a greater number of electoral votes by counting slaves as 3/5 of a white man.
__________________
I have something in common with the President. Trump just complained that his life was so much better before he became President. Mine too!
  #17759  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:14 PM
RSchmitz's Avatar
RSchmitz RSchmitz is offline
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,996
Default

Not saying that I support it, but how do you guys feel about direct democracy and not representative democracy?
__________________
If no government system will guarantee a utopia, then our best choice is to look for the least exploitive one
  #17760  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:17 PM
Donnie D's Avatar
Donnie D Donnie D is online now
Steven Stamkos' One Timer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sarasota
Posts: 9,934
Default

Doesnít work. You canít have town hall meetings on every issue shaping the country.
__________________
I have something in common with the President. Trump just complained that his life was so much better before he became President. Mine too!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2008, BoltProspects.com. All Rights Reserved.