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  #41  
Old 08-28-2017, 07:00 AM
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The fairgrounds appears to be the best site to me. That colossal casino across I4 draws from all over the state, it is easy to get to and parking is plentiful. That casino grosses nearly twice what the highest grosser in Las Vegas (Wynn in 2016) does. And they do so with far fewer rooms and entertainment options.
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  #42  
Old 08-28-2017, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
Does the $800M include the stadium only, or does it include the development around the stadium? The new model for ballparks like this one is what the Braves did with Suntrust Park, where they built a retail and office district around the ballpark (which, in of itself is fairly generic).
it includes a retractable roof.

Those that hold the land say they would let Hillsborough County have it for a very good price as they want to keep the land they hold around the stadium for development as that is where the money is at.
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  #43  
Old 08-28-2017, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flycoon View Post
The fairgrounds appears to be the best site to me. That colossal casino across I4 draws from all over the state, it is easy to get to and parking is plentiful. That casino grosses nearly twice what the highest grosser in Las Vegas (Wynn in 2016) does. And they do so with far fewer rooms and entertainment options.
I would hate the fairgrounds. When we played hockey there all you could do is drive up and park. Nowhere to go before or after the games. If we want money going back to the community you want a place where you can park, and enjoy the surrounding area, much like Channelside and the few places around the Trop.
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  #44  
Old 08-28-2017, 11:58 AM
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if the government is going to put $400 million into a project, it should be as a part of an urban redevelopment. Putting it at the fair grounds doesn't accomplish this.

I never figured out why Atlanta didn't fight harder to keep its baseball team downtown.
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  #45  
Old 08-29-2017, 12:04 AM
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Well, Turner Field wasn't exactly downtown where Phillips Arena and the football behemoths are. Another example of how perfect the location needs to be. What I like about Ybor is how much more room there is to grow – east, west and south. Channelside is going to take over that whole southeastern side of the downtown Tampa peninsula. Once it's done there won't be much more room to grow. The Rays would be wise to grab what they can around that elbow of the port and stake their claim. Hell, in 10-15 years it might be as good or better than Vinnikville if it spurs a major Ybor expansion all around it.

One thing to keep in mind with the capacity is not sellout crowds, but average crowds. What do the Rays average now? Around 12,000 and change? Sure we can expect an increase in average attendance when the team plays closer to the population base, but take away the honeymoon affect of the new stadium and what are we really looking at – 16,000? 18,000? 20,000 when the team is really good? This is still a small market, and yes, the competition for leisure dollars is intense in a region with two other good franchises and an enviable plethora of possible outdoor activities.

Here's a good, insightful read from the statnerds: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/can-t...ge-attendance/
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  #46  
Old 08-29-2017, 03:55 PM
Derek28 Derek28 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bolthed View Post
One thing to keep in mind with the capacity is not sellout crowds, but average crowds. What do the Rays average now? Around 12,000 and change? Sure we can expect an increase in average attendance when the team plays closer to the population base, but take away the honeymoon affect of the new stadium and what are we really looking at – 16,000? 18,000? 20,000 when the team is really good? This is still a small market, and yes, the competition for leisure dollars is intense in a region with two other good franchises and an enviable plethora of possible outdoor activities.
Rays attendance is better than 12,000. It's currently in the 15,000's this year and has been around that area the past couple years. That is keeping in mind that the team has been bad the past few years. During their best years (2008-2010) the team was averaging in the 22,000 and 23,000 range. The team is also regularly in the top half of baseball in TV viewership so the fan base is here, it's just getting people to go to the games.

The question to me is what does Sternberg do if he gets a new stadium in Tampa. You are not going to bring in more fans if your payroll is still $70 Million and your team is barely a wild card contender. If the payroll increases and the team is competitive for the division every year I would guess that the Rays could draw at least 25,000 and maybe up in the 27,000-28,000 range.
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  #47  
Old 08-29-2017, 04:27 PM
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Before the Trop was built the Tampa Baseball Group and MLB did several studies on attendance between Tampa and St. Pete. Granted these were done in the early 80's, but as far as St Pete they were very close. St Pete would have a draw of around 18,000 per game while Tampa had a draw of 25,000 per game.

It was because of this study that St Pete went ahead and built the Trop even after MLB told them not to do it. The only reason they are where they are is because they needed a quick place to play and St. Pete held a gun to Naimoli and thus we got this terrible deal.
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  #48  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Derek28 View Post
If the payroll increases and the team is competitive for the division every year I would guess that the Rays could draw at least 25,000 and maybe up in the 27,000-28,000 range.
Which means 32,000 capacity is fine.
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  #49  
Old 08-29-2017, 08:44 PM
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I never figured out why Atlanta didn't fight harder to keep its baseball team downtown.
All three pro teams were coming to the trough at the same time. Mayor Reed couldn't open the wallet for everyone, so he made a strategic decision to allow the Braves to walk to Cobb County. Baseball's demographics skew older, whiter, suburban, and richer. In other words, not south of I-20 where Turner Field is located and not Downtown either. Compared to the Falcons and Hawks, it was a pretty easy choice... especially considering the nebulous Liberty Media conglomerate out of Colorado that owns the Braves now is unpopular because of their detached, bottom-line driven approach.

Arthur Blank and the Falcons were easy to support. Blank self-financed a large chunk of the project, committed to building a palace that will be in the rotation for a ton of top events including possibly the Super Bowl, AND had a MLS franchise in his back pocket once the stadium is built, which appeals to the young hipsters moving back into the city. Blank was on during the Falcons preseason game and I think he said there's only about a 15% overlap between the Falcons and United fan bases, which means a very broad array of demographic groups are going to use the new stadium.

The Hawks are a stranger story. The old ownership group (which also sold the Thrashers off to Winnipeg) was deeply unpopular and generally regarded as a joke, and the Hawks haven't really been relevant since they traded Dominique. They sold the club a couple of years ago to Tony Ressler (with Grant Hill as a minority owner), who is a pretty wealthy billionaire. There may have been a scenario where the Hawks could've moved to DeKalb County, but the government in DeKalb is notoriously corrupt and couldn't get their ish together (hence why they couldn't even keep Atlanta United's planned training facility for longer than 5 minutes, although they blamed "unsuitable soils" at the site that was originally selected). Ressler's since come to the table with a deal to partner with the city to completely renovate Phillips Arena in some novel ways, including having a barber shop behind one of the baskets in the arena. Atlanta, being Black Hollywood, should be a pretty big NBA city. If they ever get a legit star or two, now that they have a better owner with deep pockets, it might become a more prominent franchise in the league.

Keeping the Hawks and Falcons and letting the Braves move north to Cobb was ultimately just the logical thing to do on pretty much every level. Demographically. Financially. Politically. The only real losers were Gwinnett and DeKalb County. Gwinnett blew their wad about 10 years too soon on Gwinnett Arena and Coolray Field (home of the Braves AAA team). If they had waited, they probably could've put together a deal that would've whipped Cobb and gotten the big league Braves, IMO.

BTW, they ended up giving Turner Field to Georgia State, which is converting it to their football stadium and making it an athletic and student complex. GSU already occupies a vast footprint downtown and has a huge enrollment and will soon be the biggest college in the state, if it isn't already.
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