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  #10891  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:05 PM
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pete pete is offline
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So... apparently a bunch of Trump supporters on Twitter are mistakenly attacking LeVar Burton after Trump's Twitter war with LaVar Ball.

https://twitter.com/ABC7/status/933425540194697216

The humorous irony of Trump supporters stupidly launching an internet assault on the man who hosted Reading Rainbow should not be lost on anyone at this moment, IMO.
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  #10892  
Old 11-23-2017, 08:30 PM
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Take a look, it's in a book
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  #10893  
Old 11-24-2017, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
The humorous irony of Trump supporters stupidly launching an internet assault on the man who hosted Reading Rainbow should not be lost on anyone at this moment, IMO.
They hate anything remotely intellectual, so while their target was not the intended one they will be fine with the results.
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  #10894  
Old 11-24-2017, 02:08 PM
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LightningTdi LightningTdi is offline
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Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
Yes, people do work under the table now. Yes, people do sell loose cigarettes. Yes, people do dodge paying taxes through legal and illegal means. Undocumented immigrants do pay payroll taxes if they're here on illegally obtained documents, paying for benefits they can never collect on. They do pay SALT and fees, just like other poor people.

Economists' opinions vary on the size of the "underground" economy in the United States, but they estimate that it's between one and three trillion dollars yearly already. If you give everyone their full paycheck and then tax them (don't bullshit people with that 23% estimate) up to or beyond 50% on goods/services, then you can bet your ass those goods and services will be provided in a cash only "underground" manner.

Hell the entire argument of the FairTax is "people like keeping more of their money they earn, with this you get to keep your whole paycheck!" This argument precisely demonstrates WHY black markets exist and will grow if "the man" takes a huge chunk when I buy necessities.

"But you get a Prebate!" Oh really? A check to offset my tax burden? What happens when I use that money to buy shit I need? That shit is taxed. Don't give me a "prebate" then take 23-60% of it back on the ass-end and tell me you're giving me a good deal.

Economists tend to agree that a consumption tax is good for growing the economy. The problem is that it won't grow in such a way that it effects wages to make them grow enough to offset the tax burden of the people who earn wages through labor. This is a way that the tax is regressive. The tax burden of those of us who make income through providing goods/services will increase as compared to those who make their income through capital investment, etc.

It's regressive in that it's also akin to a flat tax on basic necessities. All of the income quintiles need basic things. They can only purchase so many of the basic things in a given year, but the cost of the basic things for the lower economic quintiles represent a larger share of their overall income than it does for the upper-income folks.

I'll defer to the actual accountants and tax attorneys on this board about the specific ways in which the FairTax will be end-run.

How is the IRS going to collect taxes from the sellers if the FairTax Act is enacted?

Source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...ll/25/all-info

I bolded the part of the FairTax Bill that's before Congress that shits all over a portion of your argument.
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Originally Posted by dannybolt View Post
By the way, welcome to the boards, TDI, and thanks for putting the Fair Tax in front of me to dig through. While certainly not exhaustive, my thoughts as described above I think are real flaws in their arguments and the execution of their ideas.

If you have lurked on this board for very long, you no doubt realized that you will have your beliefs and positions challenged in this thread in particular, and I for one have found a lot of value in the debates. I hope you find the same value. There's some smart people on these boards, with a variety of backgrounds and political persuasions. It's just about the last place I can go online and have a legit discussion on a topic that doesn't just devolve into name calling or an echo chamber circle jerk. For the most part.

Hopefully Sotnos can peel all this stuff into its own thread, because I have more thoughts on taxes and economics, but don't want to burden the NOTD II thread, more than I already have.
I certainly appreciate the thought and time you have put in and I will go through all that you posted.

Thanks for the straight feedback as opposed to what seems to commonly occur here which is ad hominem attacks and "insight"

Quick question on "The logic behind the enforcement part is fantastical. For a quarter of a percent of the proceeds, States Departments of Revenue are going to do all the collection for the Feds. So, they are likely going to ask for grants from the Feds to hire (likely old IRS agents) to help them collect as part of their State Sales and Use tax collections."

If states already have the manpower to collect current state sales taxes, which would there have to be a larger workforce? Isn't the number of business that they collect from already a set number?
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  #10895  
Old 11-24-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningTdi View Post
I certainly appreciate the thought and time you have put in and I will go through all that you posted.

Thanks for the straight feedback as opposed to what seems to commonly occur here which is ad hominem attacks and "insight"

Quick question on "The logic behind the enforcement part is fantastical. For a quarter of a percent of the proceeds, States Departments of Revenue are going to do all the collection for the Feds. So, they are likely going to ask for grants from the Feds to hire (likely old IRS agents) to help them collect as part of their State Sales and Use tax collections."

If states already have the manpower to collect current state sales taxes, which would there have to be a larger workforce? Isn't the number of business that they collect from already a set number?
That makes the assumption that a) the states are on board with this (not confirmed on the site b) there is no change to the way the states are collecting sales and use tax revenue (incorrect, I think) c) states are currently sufficiently staffed up to handle their current collection requirements (not sure, but my guess is no, if it is like most anything else in government).

While it is true that states departments of revenue already collect sales and use taxes from businesses, the Fair Tax changes the taxes that are collected, as more transactions are now going to have sales taxes. Which means more businesses are going to be remitting sales tax on behalf of the taxpayer. Since the states are going to be on the hook for funding the Federal government through tax collection, that is going to mean more revenue agents, more state audits of sales tax rolls and more administration at the state level. You are increasing costs at the state level, while reducing them at the federal level. This will mean states will have to raise their income taxes to cover the extra enforcement necessary. Ironically, you would spread the inefficiency of the IRS from a single point, to 50 points as you decentralize tax collection. While this means that the Feds can remain revenue neutral, for the taxpayer, it means an increase in total aggregate taxes, I would think.

My comment about individual taxpayers not getting audited for underreporting sales tax stands. If any individual buys something online and doesn't pay tax, like over the internet, or if you buy a sandwich at a deli and they charge you 5 bucks, without tax; you are responsible to remit the sales taxes to the state. Which my guess is, roughly nobody ever does. Now you've added a bunch of businesses who don't normally pay sales taxes (however, they pay others), and individuals who aren't used to remitting tax if they aren't charged. As I said, that's a gaping hole in the structural underpinning of the plan. Zeyk and Fly have both described how that will likely work in local economies, so I'm not going to re-run that ground. It may be that when you change the calculus, and far more money is at stake, state auditors will become much more aggressive, but that is going to mean an increase in revenue agents.

I never found anything that would describe what happens for non-payment. That is a real flaw that they need to address. They don't mention tax courts in the Fair tax site, at least that I remember. I think they just assume that everyone will pay. There's no IRS, so not sure who is going to enforce non-payment. If they are assuming that everyone will pay because they are used to paying sales taxes, then they have ignored the very nature of man.

Honestly, people think the tax code is complicated because of all of the loopholes. That is mostly incorrect from my experience. The code is complicated because it closes loopholes that open when you overly simplify things. A globalized economy and the wildly disparate revenue types and streams in individual as well as business necessitate a carefully considered and flexible code, which we have. We simplified the code in 86, and ever since then have been writing law that closes loopholes that opened after that simplification, and adjusting the code for new business models and revenue streams.
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  #10896  
Old 11-24-2017, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningTdi View Post

If states already have the manpower to collect current state sales taxes, which would there have to be a larger workforce? Isn't the number of business that they collect from already a set number?
No. The states are shorter staffed than the the IRS. One of my clients is about to be audited for the second time; this is the 4th time one of my clients has been audited in my 30 years of practice. Staff at the FL DoR is primarily new grads taking whatever job they can get. They stay long enough to get experience to move on. Teachers would point and laugh at the pittance the audit staff at the FL DoR receive.

For all intents and purposes, sales tax is a program with voluntary compliance. There are occasions where offenders are prosecuted and jailed but it is rare.
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  #10897  
Old 11-24-2017, 03:59 PM
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https://www.npr.org/2017/11/21/56565...e-of-collusion

Long transcript for you to read Waiver. You may have missed the NPR broadcast of Fresh Air.
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  #10898  
Old 11-25-2017, 03:26 PM
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WaiverWire WaiverWire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeykShade View Post
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/21/56565...e-of-collusion

Long transcript for you to read Waiver. You may have missed the NPR broadcast of Fresh Air.
Will wait for the Mueller final version.
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  #10899  
Old 11-27-2017, 01:49 PM
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Thread on Trump/Putin potential quid pro quo:

https://twitter.com/krassenstein/sta...77937424994304

In more important news, Trump is about to do actual real harm to the Nation on 12/14. Despite how reprehensible and impotent Trump and his administration have been to date, 12/14 could be a massive blow to democracy and freedom for all of us.

If you aren't sure what Net Neutrality is at this point, please ask and/or research it. This isn't a right/left issue. This is a freedom issue. You should be calling your legislators about this. Even if your representative is pro-Net Neutrality, still call them to stress how important this is for them to fight for. Tell them to keep the Internet classified under Title II. To allow a reclassification to Title I is to support crony capitalism of the worst kind. Ceding this power to the elites and giant telecom companies is a recipe for servitude. Those who control the information, control the masses.
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  #10900  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:49 PM
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pete pete is offline
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It's a messed up world where we're supposed to count on flipping Tom Arnold and AJ Benza to save democracy.
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