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  #21  
Old 01-04-2009, 08:13 PM
gwf82 gwf82 is offline
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Originally Posted by bassassin View Post
Players that have been invaluable are Ramo and Lundin, last year they both played great and so what they are in the minors now, they both contributed to the team. Also I dont know what your point is about players being on an emergency call up, Smaby is and he looks like he belongs, I mean Schneider in Van is on an emergency call up...doesnt mean he isnt ready to play in the NHL.

I have to ask in that last of players most of whom are still in the minors are there any you dont think will ever play in the NHL again? If not why not include them?
Ramo and Lundin helped us to last in the NHL this past season? Thats invaluable? I LOVE Ramo but to this point he is not a regular NHLer and for whatever reason struggled and has poor numbers in Norfolk compared to his back-up there who doesnt even have an NHL contract. Heck, this season McKenna wouldve probably got the call first was he actually Bolts property and he has average numbers this season at best. Ramo's are that bad.

Lundin will be here, but and probably should be here now, but for now is a minor leaguer. I personally though would count him.

IF Smaby sticks then he should be counted, as with any of the others, but guys getting cups of coffee thanks to injuries dont count in my opinion...yet.


And poor choice using Schneider I'm a big Canucks fan as well and there's a reason they went and grabbed a useless fatty like LaBarbera...Schneider isnt ready and has looked pretty awful on more than one occasion thus far.
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  #22  
Old 01-05-2009, 12:41 AM
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All I can say is, you're undercutting your credibility by trying to hang the previous group for what Rick Dudley did between the 99 and 01 drafts. Other than Artyukhin, that man did an absolutely disasterous job, and it's no secret that the Russian bent was coming from Dudley. Look at how the profile of the players being drafted changed from 2002 on.

All I can say about the job the scouts did from 2002-2007 is that at the All-Star break of last season they had the best record of drafting players outside of the first two rounds of the draft of any team in the NHL. Only Buffalo was close. And that's pretty important considering how few top-90 picks they were handed by Jay Feaster. And that analysis didn't include the future services of a guy like Ramo, Smolenak, or possibly Jones, or any of '06 or '07 picks like Killorn or Tokarski.

And that's to say nothing of the pro scouts who tagged Szczechura.

If anything, this season has been a validation of what that group of scouts did. It's patently obvious that Smolenak and Szczechura all have a future with this team and that Smaby will have a career somewhere in the NHL (probably here, now). That's not bad considering none of those guys are first round picks. My analysis showed that first round picks made up about half of the players who made the show from the 2002 draft on, and about 70-75% came from the top-90 picks. In other words, if you were hitting on 5 or 6 guys from pick 91 on like the guys under Goertzen were doing, you didn't suck.

We'll see what the new scouts do. I'm entering it with an open mind, and it appears OK Hockey and Lawton are intent on making sure they will have more top-90 picks to work with than Feaster did. That puts them in a better position to succeed. However, lets not use this as an opportunity to crap on the scouts who were here who occassionally managed to pull off the incredibly hard task of turning chicken crap into chicken salad with the pick position they were handed.
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  #23  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:00 AM
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Amen.

Throwing out the Pokemon era.

'02 draft (players with 100+ games played since being drafted inserted from the 4th-9th rounds)

1st round pick traded = Fedotenko = Cup
Hindsight = missed out on Bouwmeester or Pitkanen
(I'll take the Cup, which trumps everything in my book)

2nd round
(TB) Henrich
Hindsight - on the board in the late 2nd round Tomas Fleischmann (40pts), no pick in the third but also on the board still (Could of picked these players with the Henrich pick) Ole - Kristian Tollefsen (10 pts), Greg Campbell (50 pts), Erik Christensen (80 pts), Matt Jones (10 pts), Matt Lombardi (149 pts), Valteri Filppula (70 pts)

Rounds 4-9

Cam Janssen - 4th - 5pts (Enforcer)
(TB) Kazionov

Lasse Pirjeta - 5th - 50pts (Not in NHL since 05-06 - gone by then anyway)
(TB) Pearce

James Wisniewski - 5th - 43pts (Gone by then)
(TB) Dicaire

(TB) Ranger - 6th - 88pts
Ian White - 6th - 64pts

(TB) Norrena - 7th - 85 starts - 35-45-11 2.79 gaa .899 sv% (Europe)

(TB) Koshechkin... then,
Maxime Talbot - 8th - 65 pts
Petr Prucha - 8th -107 pts (20 of those pts in last 2 seasons total)
Dennis Wideman - 8th - 111 pts
(TB) Craig - 8th - 60pts

Adam Burish - 9th - 8pts - (Enforcer)

So, all in hindsight, throwing the Cup aside in acquiring Feds, the late 2nd round players still available, and Wideman in the 8th still there with the Koshechkin pick... overall I'd say they did alright for the first year Feaster regime, especially the 4-7th.

Also try to take in account what would have developed in regards to the payroll and contracts had any of the other non-Lightning drafted players been drafted by us and seen 100+ games with "Dollar Bill" and Campbell's budget. Probably safe to say there would have been a domino effect on future payrolls.
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  #24  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:07 AM
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03 draft - players with 100+ games thus far from the 4th-9th rounds

1st round = No Pick
Hindsight = missed on Corey Perry, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Burns, Zach Parise... players either would have been there in the Lightning's slot or possibly traded up to get these players (would of-could of-should of)

2nd round
(TB) Smaby & Egener - Only 100+ game player sandwiched between them is Kamil Kreps (35 pts)
Hindsight = By the time the Lightning's other 2nd round pick came around (Stillman trade) David Backes was picked by the Blues (73 pts). But between that slot and the Smaby pick these players were still on the board Patrice Bergeron, Dan Fritsche, Matt Carle, Shea Weber, Patrick O'Sullivan, and Maxime Lapierre. I'll concede it sucks we missed out on Weber or Bergeron but that too, again, is in hindsight.

3rd round
Only players of note are Picard, Dan Carcillo, and Zac Stortini - all of whom were picked prior to them taking Boutin.

Rounds 4-9 (No picks in the 4th or 5th)

Jan Hejda - 4th - (30 pts) - only player selected in the 4th round with 100+ games - 4 other players with a total nhl games played = 31 games combined

Lee Stempniak - 5th - 138pts
Lasse Kukkonen - 5th - 22 pts
Brad Richardson - 5th - 41 pts
You can throw Nigel Dawes in there (99 games - 42 pts) but the remaining overall picks from this round total 4 players with any NHL time with a combined total of 28 games and 8 pts

By the time the Lightning were back on the board in the 6th, they took Doug O'Brien with Bruno Gervais being the only 100+ nhl game player (26 pts) out of the entire 6th round and was already selected. Nathan Paetsch (36 pts) and Joe Pavelski (94 pts) being the only 100+ game players still on the board in the late 6th and 7th round when they took O'Brien... oh and Kyle Brodziak (40 pts). Only 4 other players have played in the NHL with a combined 65 games and 8 pts. Of course, Coleman and Rosehill were picked in the late 7th

8th
In the 8th you had Shane O'Brien, Tobias Enstrom, and Dustin Byfuglien but they were gone already by the time they got their picks and only 3 others have a total of 41 games and 2 pts from the 8th round. Then Tarnasky taken in the 9th with Tanner Glass, Matt Moulson, Jaroslov Halak, Brian Elliott, and David Jones all with a combined total of 140 games (Elliott and Halak being goalies, 1 game for Elliott - 35 for Halak) and 18 pts.
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  #25  
Old 01-05-2009, 08:49 AM
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Have we thought that maybe it is not our drafting but what happens to the players once they get into our "system"?

I do not follow these type of things because we have others here that are very very good at this. But if memory serves me correct haven't we had the kids in places like Springfield and Hershey and after a couple of years those organizations want to break ties with us because they had gone from being a winning organization prior to our arrival to a losing one after our arrival?
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  #26  
Old 01-05-2009, 10:27 AM
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Donnie D Donnie D is offline
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Ok, I'll make one last comment, you can take your last shots - then I'll let it go.

I said our scouting department and past drafting history has been awful. I thought that was a pretty simple statement that is very clearly backed up by results. But since folks are taking my statement about our history to mean the most recent set of scouts, perfaps it would have been more accurate to say, "our draft history has been awful" rather than including the scouting staff. Pete - you can't say that the Dudley years don't count, they are still part of our drafting history.

The fact is that our organization has not had the draft history of other teams. I look at a Philly or Detroit that always seems to have players in the minors that step in and want our team to have that same ability.

Our poor draft history is a fact, no matter how you try and twist it. If you go back to the Espo years it becomes even more apparent. That's our draft history - Espo, Dudley, Feaster. We have the final results for the first 2 and their draft history. The first few years of the Feaster era are coming in, and while it holds more promise, it doesn't change the fact that our overall history has been poor.

The Cubs had a good year last year, could win the series this coming year, but until they actually win something, their team history is still poor.

Perhaps when the results of the last 3 years come in, we can look back at the Feaster years and say that he built a fine scouting department that did a great job, but right now they are just prospects.

I'm not hanging the failure of the Dudley years on the most recent scouts because that ass created problems that Feaster spent the better part of 7 years trying to correct. Face it, Dudley had a number of high picks that he totally mismanaged (see - poor draft history). Had Dudley's group used those 3 high picks to either draft or trade to get 2 players that could play on the top 2 lines or for a top 2 defenseman, we wouldn't have seen the need to make the trade for Feds and we would have had a Lupol in the system. (Would we have won the cup without the trade is another discussion.) The fact that Feaster had to trade all of those #1 picks was a direct reflection on our poor draft history and the fact that we didn't have players in the system that could step in.

What we are now seeing is a willingness by the current ownership to spend money on free agents rather than having to trade high picks to fill holes as Feaster was seemingly forced to do. One can argue that they are thowing money at everyone hoping that one or two work out. So far, Malone has produced and came to us without having to sacrifice a draft pick. We have, I believe 5 picks in the first 3 rounds next year - a luxury that Feaster never had. I hope that these guys are able to use these picks to build a strong minor league organization and produce a winning minor league system that allows us to feed players into the parent club. Because that's something that has been missing in the history of this club.

I really don't know how folks can argue with that. The proof is in the total number of players produced - not the number of middle round picks that eventually make it. That's our history.
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Last edited by Donnie D; 01-05-2009 at 11:21 AM.
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  #27  
Old 01-05-2009, 11:15 AM
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My argument is with the rhetoric that claims that the new scouts will automatically be an improvement over what we've had. In that case, you are comparing the 2002-2007 staff versus the Barrie Bunch.
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  #28  
Old 01-05-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete View Post
My argument is with the rhetoric that claims that the new scouts will automatically be an improvement over what we've had. In that case, you are comparing the 2002-2007 staff versus the Barrie Bunch.
Ok 1 more comment - I never said that the Berrie Bunch was an improvement over the last group, I said that I hope they are an improvement.

The final results on the 2002 - 2007 group are 3 - 4 years away since we don't know how the 2005, 2006 and 2007 drafts will turn out - maybe even the 2004 draft.

My fear is that the Berrie Bunch is nepotism at its worst, but we won't know for at least 5 years. They are being given an opportunity to make some early picks. As long as they don't blow them like Dudley, at least they have the opportunity to improve the situation.
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  #29  
Old 01-05-2009, 05:19 PM
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I agree. If they don't blow the early picks they are given, we will be in ever-improving shape.
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  #30  
Old 01-06-2009, 09:34 AM
CTLightning26 CTLightning26 is offline
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Just a thought:

If we don't get in the top two of the draft, unless we're third and there is an absolute definite No. 3.. A big defensive d man like Jared Cowan doesn't thrill me---we got smaby, mihalik and rogers.
if we're say 5 or 6, how bout dropping down a few spots, picking up another pick or two and nabbing Ryan Ellis. He sounds like he could be the next Dan Boyle. He looked ok to me in the games i watched at the WJs..
if not, maybe Kulikov.
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