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BurnTHalO 11-02-2017 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219904)
ok, I'll be in flashchat


Quote:

In regards to African-Americans, this study’s findings show that African-Americans
sentenced in State courts are generally punished more harshly than whites, independent of
offense seriousness and prior criminal history.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208129.pdf


Quote:

Her analysis reveals that disparity in federal sentencing of drug offenders is linked not only to offense-related variables, as structured by the guidelines, but also to defendant characteristics such as ethnicity, gender, educational level, and noncitizenship, which under the guidelines are specified as legally irrelevant.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3053987...n_tab_contents

Quote:

Using data from Maryland, we find that African Americans have 20% longer sentences than whites, on average, holding constant age, gender, and recommended sentence length from the guidelines.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3185415...n_tab_contents

ZeykShade 11-02-2017 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219908)
I know you aren't trying to claim that crimes shouldn't have consequences right?

I'm saying that consequences are not considered at all by the desperate or deranged.

Consequences aren't how you address crime. You are just removing the criminal from society for a brief time, permanently. The underlying causes of the crime still remain. Consequences do not fight crime.

dannybolt 11-02-2017 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219902)
You believe speed limits are bad then huh?

Re: Speed limits: actually, yes, I don't think they should be on interstates and in sparsely populated areas. I'd argue that people driving slowly, or much slower than the flow of traffic, are bigger road hazards than speeders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219902)
What in the hell?

Broken as in bad laws. Not laws that are broken. Ultimately the laws are supposed to govern the way we want to order our society. If large chunks of the populace ignore a law, it isn't functioning and should be repealed. Sorry for the confusion.

RSchmitz 11-02-2017 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeykShade (Post 219910)
I'm saying that consequences are not considered at all by the desperate or deranged.

Yeah, consequences aren't considered by tiny portion of the population

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeykShade (Post 219910)
Consequences aren't how you address crime. You are just removing the criminal from society for a brief time, permanently. The underlying causes of the crime still remain. Consequences do not fight crime.

100% disagree, pain is the best teacher. Negative reinforcement fights crime, basic psychology. How is this even debatable? Maybe you are trying to argue that jail shouldn't be the consequence 99.9% of the time, I can agree with you there. I hope that is what you meant.

RSchmitz 11-02-2017 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannybolt (Post 219911)
Re: Speed limits: actually, yes, I don't think they should be on interstates and in sparsely populated areas. I'd argue that people driving slowly, or much slower than the flow of traffic, are bigger road hazards than speeders.

They are. Accidents occur when people are driving at drastically different speeds. That is why there is also a minimum speed limit. See, all of these laws have a purpose even if they arbitrarily obeyed.

ZeykShade 11-02-2017 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219913)
100% disagree, pain is the best teacher. Negative reinforcement fights crime, basic psychology. How is this even debatable? Maybe you are trying to argue that jail shouldn't be the consequence 99.9% of the time, I can agree with you there. I hope that is what you meant.

Oh cool, so if it's the best teacher, then the U.S. must have incredibly low recidivism rates, given that we imprison more people than anyone else on the planet.

76.6% of criminals will re-offend within 5 years in the United States. Norway is 20% by comparison.

RSchmitz 11-02-2017 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeykShade (Post 219916)
Oh cool, so if it's the best teacher, then the U.S. must have incredibly low recidivism rates, given that we imprison more people than anyone else on the planet.

76.6% of criminals will re-offend within 5 years in the United States. Norway is 20% by comparison.

You are arguing that there shouldn't be consequences by bringing up incarceration rate. Like I said, jail isn't the only form of consequence. If you are trying to argue that consequences do not curb behavior through negative reinforcement, there is a mountain of behaviorist literature that will tell you that you are wrong. Common sense should tell you that you are wrong though. If a child burns their hand by putting it on the stove, guess what? They are less likely to put their hand on the stove afterwards.

You also picked a country 1/60th the population of the U.S. with one of the highest standards of living in the world to make your point? That's pretty lame if you are trying to make a fair comparison. Just saying

ZeykShade 11-02-2017 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219919)
You are arguing that there shouldn't be consequences by bringing up incarceration rate. Like I said, jail isn't the only form of consequence. If you are trying to argue that consequences do not curb behavior through negative reinforcement, there is a mountain of behaviorist literature that will tell you that you are wrong. Common sense should tell you that you are wrong though. If a child burns their hand by putting it on the stove, guess what? They are less likely to put their hand on the stove afterwards.

You also picked a country 1/60th the population of the U.S. with one of the highest standards of living in the world to make your point? That's pretty lame if you are trying to make a fair comparison. Just saying

Crime is a product of societal factors, least of which are consequences for committing crime. Recidivism rates are a factor of the penal system and societal factors. We lock people up in this country at an alarming rate, has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You said that the consequences of being locked up should effect commission of crime. Since we have big consequences, you'd think that folks wouldn't commit crimes. Particularly those who have already tasted those consequences, right? Wrong. We have one of the worst recidivism rates among OECD nations.

You want less crime? Change the standard of living of people. Change the penal system to rehabilitate instead of punish. Pain is not the best teacher in this situation.

Also kinda shitty to think that the US can't have a higher standard of living than Norway, right? I mean, they're fucking Norway and we're 'Murica!

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be consequences, I'm refuting your assertion that the consequences fight crime.

RSchmitz 11-02-2017 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeykShade (Post 219922)
Crime is a product of societal factors, least of which are consequences for committing crime. Recidivism rates are a factor of the penal system and societal factors. We lock people up in this country at an alarming rate, has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You said that the consequences of being locked up should effect commission of crime. Since we have big consequences, you'd think that folks wouldn't commit crimes. Particularly those who have already tasted those consequences, right? Wrong. We have one of the worst recidivism rates among OECD nations.

You want less crime? Change the standard of living of people. Change the penal system to rehabilitate instead of punish. Pain is not the best teacher in this situation.

Also kinda shitty to think that the US can't have a higher standard of living than Norway, right? I mean, they're fucking Norway and we're 'Murica!

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be consequences, I'm refuting your assertion that the consequences fight crime.

Lengthy prison sentences isn't what I'd consider pain as a teaching tool, that is just getting menaces off the streets. My brother got a DUI and has paid thousands of dollars and was without a car for a year, he doesn't drink and drive any more. I have a friend who would open car doors and steal wallets. He got caught and had to do an intervention program, community service, restitution. He doesn't steal any more. List goes on and on

ZeykShade 11-02-2017 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSchmitz (Post 219924)
Lengthy prison sentences isn't what I'd consider pain as a teaching tool, that is just getting menaces off the streets. My brother got a DUI and has paid thousands of dollars and was without a car for a year, he doesn't drink and drive any more. I have a friend who would open car doors and steal wallets. He got caught and had to do an intervention program, community service, restitution. He doesn't steal any more. List goes on and on

Anecdotes do NOT equal data. This last post has no value in the presence of 76.6% recidivism rate for the United States.


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