Super Tuesday

[RSchmitz]

Anybody else excited?

[WaiverWire]

:yawn: http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg43/alvino1/yuk.gif

[TexasBolt]

I'm excited that the Democratic primary is going to be in play long enough for my vote in Texas to matter. (We don't vote until March 4.) The candidates are probably going to have to show up and campaign here and everything. Good times!

Unfortunately it's an open primary, so all the Hillary haters are free to cross over and vote for her in the hopes she survives to the general election. Not good times.

[Jester47]

Anybody else excited?


I am... normally I leave BP up in a window in the back ground here at work and over to it every now and then, today I think I'll have BP and MSNBC at the same time. I'm glad the class I'm facilitating today is only 1/2 a day so that I can keep an eye on things....

BTW, great gif WW, you know I'll be using that one in an e-mail soon!!!!

[jaydeedub]

Think I was more excited about Super Tuesday instead of the Super Bowl. Although now that the Super Bowl did not end up like the Pats wanted it to, I may lean toward the Bowl.
Sounds like McCain already is the front runner for the Repubs. The Dem's side should be more exciting which is good, wonder how long it's going to go 'till.

[timothy]

I am... normally I leave BP up in a window in the back ground here at work and over to it every now and then, today I think I'll have BP and MSNBC at the same time.

Can I quote you, Jester, in our new ad campaign blitz we are planning! :laugh:

[chad]

I'd like to be stoked about this but your country just takes my taxes and won't let me participate in the voting process.

And they keep raising the price for citizenship.

That said, it's fun to follow what's happening.

[pete]

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=13715E33E60054BFE612A19102 764998?diaryId=3693

This is about how I see it at this point. Unless she scores a major upset or two in the next month, it looks like Clinton's only path to the nomination now involves lawyers and back room deals, at which point she will be completely damaged goods and her campaign will have zero legitimacy.

IMO, her best play at this point is to try to leverage the number of delegates and superdelegates she has to force herself onto the ticket as VP, which I might be ok with. I could definitely see her in the role of a Cheney-esque attack dog, especially after how psycho she looked when she went on the attack at the last SC debate.

Other than hold California to within 5-6% Obama did everything he had to do last night and then some.

[astro]

I need to follow that link.... but i was i had your optimism

[RSchmitz]

I was looking for your opinion Pete, I had no idea what to make of last night.

[Donnie D]

This is about how I see it at this point. Unless she scores a major upset or two in the next month, it looks like Clinton's only path to the nomination now involves lawyers and back room deals, at which point she will be completely damaged goods and her campaign will have zero legitimacy.

I'm not going out on that limb yet.

Saturday should be a good day for Obama. (Louisiana, Washington, Nebraska and Washington). Obama has looked good in caucus states and that could help Sunday in Maine - though I wouldn't bet against Clinton in that one.

Next Tuesday is the D.C. area with Maryland, Virginia and DC. Obama could again sweep these 3. But with proportional allocation, he will not pick up enough deligates to win it by the end of the month.

The date to circle is March 4. Ohio and Texas are up on that date. Those 2 states could determine the nomination.

And don't forget Florida. Florida and Michigan are going to have delegates at the convention - some how some way. And Clinton won both of those states by a lot. Of course it helps when yours is the only name on the ballot in Michigan and when you are the only one who campaigns in Florida.

[jaydeedub]

I would not be surprised if it took to the PA primary in APRIL to determine the Dem winner. If they keep splitting it so closely it might just. After Texas and Ohio that would be the next big state.

[the_narrow_way]

the convention - some how some way. And Clinton won both of those states by a lot. Of course it helps when yours is the only name on the ballot in Michigan and when you are the only one who campaigns in Florida.
That whole thing still makes me a bit angry. The Republican leadership of FL moved the primary up, and screwed the whole thing up. Now, of course I think FL should have delegates seated, but if you don't play by your own party's rules, then what does that say? Hillary, I'm looking at you.

[astro]

Romney is suspending his presidential campaign sealing the deal for McCain. I wanted to share a quote with everyone because I thought that it was amusing and you can see the direction the Republicans are taking the presidential campaign.

"If I fight on in my campaign, all the way to the convention, I would forestall the launch of a national campaign and make it more likely that Senator Clinton or Obama would win. And in this time of war, I simply cannot let my campaign, be a part of aiding a surrender to terror," Romney will say at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington.

The Iraq war is going so well for the conservatives. This war has created more hatred toward the United States than anything. I would think the war has aided terror by the way of more recruitment.

[TexasBolt]

Wait, the word "Iraq" wasn't in there at all. The Afghanistan part of the war was the one that just about everyone agreed with.

[RSchmitz]

In other words, if you vote for Obama or Clinton, you are supporting terrorism. Nice

Any word on who is going to win New Mexico?

[astro]

Wait, the word "Iraq" wasn't in there at all. The Afghanistan part of the war was the one that just about everyone agreed with.

The reason why I bring up Iraq is that is the war that people want to pull out of. I haven't heard anything about pulling troops out of Afganistan, but it could be over-shadowed by Iraq.

Yes, if you vote for a Dem, you are voting for terrorism. It's the same damn thing that was echoed during the 2004 election. Hopefully, people won't be suckered by that again, but I don't have much trust in the American population. Pretty soon, you are going to hear that if a republican isn't in office, we will be attacked again. I'm sick and tired of it.

[WaiverWire]

Romney pulling out...........I never saw that one coming.


I guess it is like the Dems now saying since I took a college deferment in 1970 I am now a draft dodger:pound:

[the_narrow_way]

My opinion is that stomping aorund on everyone else's home turf and telling them what's best for themselves draws more hate and animosity and thus more terrorism towards us than any other option.

Defending the country from an imminent credible attack is one thing. Using scare tactics/terrorism against your own people (see: current Republican leadership) is another.

[Flycoon]

My opinion is that stomping aorund on everyone else's home turf and telling them what's best for themselves draws more hate and animosity and thus more terrorism towards us than any other option.

Defending the country from an imminent credible attack is one thing. Using scare tactics/terrorism against your own people (see: current Republican leadership) is another.

Too many are still swayed by the fear mongering tactics of the so called conservatives. I still don't get what is conservative about tax cuts in a time of war (they want it, but don't want to pay for it),record deficit spending, showing disdain for the Constitution, and increasing the size of the federal gov't to it greatest level ever. Guess all you have to to is put a bible under your arm, hate gays and abortion, and you're a "conservative". Sounds more like a hypocrite to me.

[the_narrow_way]

Amen. ;)

Did you hear Bush's little speech at the CPAP metting last night? It sounded like something a middle-schooler put together real quick for a school report. He hit all of the buzz-words in the least amount of sentences.

excerpt: "[W]e have seen vigorous debates in this country on nearly every conceivable issue: matters affecting prosperity at home and peace abroad. Our views are grounded in timeless truths. We believe that the most reliable guide for our country is the collective wisdom of ordinary citizens. We believe our culture benefits from a diversity of faith, a respect for values, and the guidance of a higher power."

prosperity: fail
peace abroad: fail
truth: fail
diversity: fail
respect: fail

He finished off with some hearty 'God bless America's' too, to work his audience ever further...

[Hoek]

Too many are still swayed by the fear mongering tactics of the so called conservatives. I still don't get what is conservative about tax cuts in a time of war (they want it, but don't want to pay for it),record deficit spending, showing disdain for the Constitution, and increasing the size of the federal gov't to it greatest level ever. Guess all you have to to is put a bible under your arm, hate gays and abortion, and you're a "conservative". Sounds more like a hypocrite to me.

Don't forget to hate brown people. McCain doesn't hate them enough so that's why he's not "conservative" enough for druggie Rush and his looney tunes cohorts. That's like literally the only thing he's lacking in, yet to hear all the whining from the peanut gallery he's the bastard lovechild of Kucinich and Nader.

I keep hoping one day this complete joke of a political "philosophy" gets a big enough smackdown in the polls that they finally learn to STFU or grow up. It's such a huge burden on productive political discourse to have to slog through the bullshit they constantly spew out and get to any sort of useful discussion. There's room and in fact a need for a true conservative voice at the table, but this utterly childish nonsense is just pointless to deal with.

[RSchmitz]

Too many are still swayed by the fear mongering tactics of the so called conservatives. I still don't get what is conservative about tax cuts in a time of war (they want it, but don't want to pay for it),record deficit spending, showing disdain for the Constitution, and increasing the size of the federal gov't to it greatest level ever. Guess all you have to to is put a bible under your arm, hate gays and abortion, and you're a "conservative". Sounds more like a hypocrite to me.

The vast majority of the population it seems would rather live in poverty so that those Bible swinging conservatives can stop the Latino's from crossing the border to steal their minimum wage jobs.

Whats odd, "Reganomics" is a laissez-faire style of economics where they decrease the size of government. That is one of the things about Republicans, they do not distribute wealth evenly; cut welfare programs, and give tax cuts to the rich so that the savings will "trickle down" to the ones who need it. So while your life savings is being used for manicures on you local CEO's, you can say that you stood up for traditional family values. I would never, ever vote for somebody who uses the word God in order to gain votes.

[pete]

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/dates/index.html#20080209

If Clinton doesn't win the Maine caucuses tomorrow night, there's a distinct possibility that she pulls into Ohio and Texas 0-for-9 since Super Tuesday.

[TexasBolt]

That makes Hillary's strategy all the more detestable. It's like she only cares about 15 states, and they just so happen to be large ones. To hell with the rest of them and any Democrats that could use a lift from an inspiring candidate like Obama.

If she wins the nomination, I don't think she can beat McCain and she might even damage the party, because all the red-state Democrats who have managed to gain office and are facing re-election will be the victims of her conservative backlash.

(Wow, Obama absolutely stomped Hillary in Washington, where she had both Senators and their governor in her corner if I recall.)

[Donnie D]

The Huckster wins 2 and is withing 2,000 votes of the third. Perhaps, the Republicans could yet get interesting.

I agree that Maine is a big one tomorrow. Obamba should sweep the DC area primaries on Tuesday.

As I said before, the next big battle is Ohio and Texas.

[RSchmitz]

(Wow, Obama absolutely stomped Hillary in Washington, where she had both Senators and their governor in her corner if I recall.)

The governor gave him her nomination today, but you bring up an interesting point. As of right now, Obama has 1,039 delegates to Hillary's 1,100; she is still winning because of the huge advantage in superdelegates she has, 223 to Obama's 131.

[Bolthed]

Can superdelegates flip flop? It's too bad if they can't, because I think a lot of them went to Hillary before Obama started showing he could not only win the nom, but the general election.

[Avery86]

Yeah. Superdelegates have the ability to change their minds. It's happened before, I imagine it'll happen again.

[pete]

Obama wipes the floor with Clinton in Maine.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#ME

+19% as of this posting. And this was a state Obama's people were projecting they might lose a week ago.

I don't think Clinton can afford to wait until Texas and Ohio. If she does, she's in danger of suffering the same fate that Giuliani got by waiting until Florida.

Wisconsin on 2/19. That's the biggee now. A week from Tuesday. That might be Hillary's last stand, and she's fighting an uphill battle because a good chunk of Wisconsin overlaps the Chicago media market. She'll be fighting on Obama's home turf.

[RSchmitz]

When is the "Potomac Primaries"?

[pete]

The Potomac Primary is Tuesday. Polling indicates Obama is winning Maryland and Virginia handily and considering the demographic make up of the District, it looks like a foregone conclusion that he'll win there too.

Obama already won Delaware on Super Tuesday.

[Bolthed]

Pete, didn't you give Hillarious 4-1 odds at the nom just a little while ago? Pretty good turnaround, eh? If you had to pinpoint it, would you say Obama struck a chord with his victory speech in SC?

[pete]

If I had to pinpoint it I would say it was the Clintons acting the fool all throughout the week before South Carolina. Hillary angrily spitting out baseless claims about Obama being in bed with slumlords in the debate that week and Bill trying to marginalize him as just another Jesse Jackson.

They really overplayed their hand and showed people the ugly underbelly of their campaign. The Kennedys have already said they probably would've stayed neutral were it not for the race-baiting Jesse Jackson comment.

They had everything stacked in their favor at that point but rather than simply act like the frontrunners they decided to get down in the mud. They looked desperate, crazy, and more than a little bit racist. Frankly, they looked like Republicans, and that's not how you win a Democratic nomination in 2008. Might've worked in 1992. Not today.

[pete]

Plus, Edwards getting out of the race has obviously helped Obama, because he consolidated the anybody-but-Hillary vote into his camp. That's part of what's going on as well.

[Donnie D]

Wisconsin on 2/19. That's the biggee now. A week from Tuesday. That might be Hillary's last stand, and she's fighting an uphill battle because a good chunk of Wisconsin overlaps the Chicago media market. She'll be fighting on Obama's home turf.

Being from that area, it's not as great as you might think. Kenosha is about the only Wisconsin city that gets much Chicago reception. North of there it is the Milwaukee media.

[pete]

Milwaukee's got a surprisingly big African American community though, from what I recall, which should still portend good things for Obama. If her DLC buddies hadn't worked so hard to bust the unions there, maybe Clinton would have a better chance.

Madison's a huge college town and he obviously excels with the youth vote too.

The last poll done of Wisconsin had Clinton up by 10, but polling also showed Clinton winning Maine last night so you can probably throw that poll out too. I think the fundamentals in Wisconsin just favor Obama.

[Donnie D]

I saw a 50 - 41 lead for Clinton with a 4% error rate. Probably what you saw. The polls are having trouble with Obama because they give more weight to likely voters and all sorts of new voters are coming out for him.

Clinton is way ahead in Ohio, more than 20%, in Texas and Vermont. Ohio should be a good state for him, so it will be interesting as the advertising campaign begins to roll out, whether he is able to cut that lead.

I think he needs one or two states that day.

[pete]

The only thing that I could see that could possibly derail him in Ohio is that, as anyone who's ever been there will tell you, Southern Ohio might as well be Alabama or Mississippi in terms of racial tolerance. Same thing with Pennsyl-tucky, which is the part of Pennsylvania which exists between Philly and Pittsburgh.

Still, that's a state I feel like he can and should win if he pulls into that day on a 9-0 winning streak since Super Tuesday. And, if he wins that state, how can Clinton with a straight face argue she's the better nominee if she can't win THE swing state from 2004?

[Flycoon]

The only thing that I could see that could possibly derail him in Ohio is that, as anyone who's ever been there will tell you, Southern Ohio might as well be Alabama or Mississippi in terms of racial tolerance. Same thing with Pennsyl-tucky, which is the part of Pennsylvania which exists between Philly and Pittsburgh.



True. More 'necks in those areas than anyone who has never been there could imagine. I had the misfortune of living in the outskirts of Cincinnati between my jr and sr years of college after my father was transferred there; never hated a place as much as that one. Only redeeming feature was the Cincinnati-style chili parlors (Skyline, Gold Star, etc).

[Donnie D]

Moved to Northern Kentucky (or as the Kentucky folks call it, South Ohio) from Chicago and enjoyed living there. Was there when Jerry Springer was the Mayor. I still have a tape of when he, as the Mayor, was the grand marshall of the Fool's Day parade, an imaginary parade on WEBN.

Anyway, I can't disagree that there are some strange racial beliefs in that area. But many of those folks are now Republican. Where I see a bigger problem for him is the Union vote up in Warren, Akron, Toledo and the west side of Cleveland. They blame their loss of jobs on civil rights and they still vote Democratic.

Oh, I have to like Cincinnati - that's where I met my wife 25 years ago. And I still get my Skyline fix in Ft. Myers, Sunrise and Clearwater.

[Flycoon]

And I still get my Skyline fix in Ft. Myers, Sunrise and Clearwater.

Skyline's frozen version is good too, Publix carries it. We make it from scratch on occasion, shoot me a PM if interested and I will get the recipe to you.

[RSchmitz]

I think Hillary is winning because of name recognition. Now that people are starting to learn who Obama is, she isn't the clear cut choice.

[pete]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/us/politics/12clinton.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&hp

Apparently the goalposts are moving. Word on the street (and in the Times) is that if Hillary doesn't "blow out" Obama in Texas and Ohio her superdelegates may leave her to the buzzards.

Anyone care to handicap the odds of him getting blown out in both states if he rolls into that day on a 9-0 winning streak?

Polling summary for the Potomac Primary here:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3843&view=print

The prediction is for Obama to make another 30-40 delegate net gain in those three primaries.

[TexasBolt]

Interesting article about how the "predictions markets" are quickly turning in Obama's favor:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080211/pl_nm/usa_politics_predictions_dc

Both of the markets quoted in this article give Obama a 70% chance of winning the nomination.

[Maverick9911]

Obama sweeps another day. Hillary's deputy campaign manager just resigned.

I'm watching his speech in Madison right now. Wow.

[RSchmitz]

Yep, I see more women in this forum giving him their support then men. Hillary rode her arrogance and attitude all the way out of the nomination.

[RSchmitz]

"placating our implacable foes" -John McCain in describing Obama/Clinton

They switched from Obama to him, he just said "palatable", is he trying to appeal to the 1% of the population that may be able to follow him? I am falling asleep listening.

[Maverick9911]

Same here. In the interests of "fairness", I watched all I could until I started to doze.

Obama's massive speech in Madison had me wanting to break down doors to vote. McCain's intimate little tea party with the retirement home and the smirking women just did nothing for me.

[RSchmitz]

We think eerily similar my friend

[pete]

After tonight Obama will have the clear lead in delegates, including superdelegates, and in the total popular vote across all the primaries and caucuses thus far even if Florida is included. It won't be long now until the defections start from Clinton's superdelegates. All Obama has to do is win Wisconsin and I think this thing might very well be done.

Incidentally, a couple of new polls came out of Wisconsin and Obama is winning in both.

http://www.openleft.com/quickHits.do#413

http://www.openleft.com/quickHits.do#418

[the_narrow_way]

Obama's massive speech in Madison had me wanting to break down doors to vote. McCain's intimate little tea party with the retirement home and the smirking women just did nothing for me.
Lol. To the voting booths! :clap2:

[TexasBolt]

Obama sweeps another day.

Not only that, but three blowout wins, including Virginia which some people thought was actually in play but went 2-to-1 for Obama. He even won the Latino vote, even though that's a pretty small demographic there.

[RSchmitz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/nyregion/16vote.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

More possible voter fraud against Obama

[pete]

Considering there were areas where Clinton got 0 votes too, I would presume there was incompetence at play moreso than fraud.

[RSchmitz]

I wonder if they will recalculate the votes

[pete]

I'm sure they will. I've heard Obama might actually get a delegate or two out of those New York City districts.

[pete]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/18/poll.texas/index.html

Say goodnight to Hillary?

[Avery86]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/18/poll.texas/index.html

Say goodnight to Hillary?

I think tomorrow's primaries might be her last chance. Obama will be heading into Ohio and Texas with way too much momentum for Clinton to match if he wins tomorrow. Apparently the polls have Clinton with a slight lead in Ohio but we've seen just how much those mean when it comes down to it.

[Maverick9911]

I had to sit in a doctor's office waiting area for over an hour today with no magazines and just Fox News blaring its usual spin :frusty:
They kept repeating that Hillary has a 10 point lead in Texas and an 18 point pad in Ohio, though that didn't seem right to me (and not just because im pulling for Obama to take the nomination).

Now she's whining about him plagiarizing parts of his speeches and sending Chelsea to get lei'd on his home turf, all this after one of her campaign strategists said that she'll have this "nailed down" by June. According to this guy, her losing streak is pre-planned and expected because she's decided to focus just on the bigger states. Way to build consensus there, Hil Dawg.

Hopefully he wins tomorrow and then surges into a decisive Ohio victory and any kind of win in Texas.

[pete]

Her lead in Ohio has been stable and sizable in all the polls I've seen, so I don't believe Obama has a chance there. Texas has been tightening slowly but surely, and apparently it's a hybrid primary/caucus.

I tend to agree with Avery. If Hillary cannot win Wisconsin or Hawaii it may be over.

[RSchmitz]

Did Obama plagiarize his just words speech? I saw the video up on CNN and they are so similar it is hard to deny it, anyone know what I am talking about?

[Maverick9911]

Saturday night at a gala for the Wisconsin Democratic Party, Obama said to frequent applause, "Don't tell me words don't matter! 'I have a dream.' Just words. 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.' Just words. 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself.' Just words, just speeches!"

In 2006, Patrick, fending off attacks from his rival Kerry Healey, told a crowd, "Her dismissive point, and I hear it a lot from her staff, is all I have to offer is words. Just words. 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal' -- just words. Just words. 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself' -- just words. 'Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country' -- just words. 'I have a dream' -- just words."

"Senator Obama and I are long-time friends and allies. We often share ideas about politics, policy and language," Patrick said in the statement. "The argument in question, on the value of words in the public square, is one about which he and I have spoken frequently before. Given the recent attacks from Senator Clinton, I applaud him responding in just the way he did."

Honestly, and not because I like the guy, I think she is just grasping at straws. It would be like Obama's camp knocking her for turning "Yes We Can" into "Yes She Can", which she has. If Patrick doesn't mind and acknowledges they brainstorm together, it's all moot IMO.

[RSchmitz]

Good stuff, I am glad you found that.

[Donnie D]

Did Obama plagiarize his just words speech? I saw the video up on CNN and they are so similar it is hard to deny it, anyone know what I am talking about?

Story I saw said it was the second time he used the quote. The first time he attributed it to the Gov. of Mass, this time he didn't. Then again Clinton has used lines by Edwards too.

In my opinion it is grasping at straws.

2 polls out in Wisconsin show Obama ahead, 1 shows Clinton ahead. The Texas poll, as pointed out above shows the lead going from 9 to 2 points. Ohio is still Clinton by more than 20 points.

I look for Clinton to do well in Wisconsin tomorrow - perhaps not win, but better than expected. It is an open primary and a lot of Republicans could grab a d ballot, hold their noses and vote Clinton with the thought that she would be the easiest to beat.

[RSchmitz]

Check these out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFKipoXVjSs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRQD-MsSpfI

I can't help but hate Hillary more and more every day. She is either mocking him or that is a lame attempt at copying

[the_narrow_way]

Hiallry's camp seems to be out of ammo, if this plagiarism claim is the best they can come up with.

Obama and Patrick are old buddies, and have publicly credited each other and said how they share ideas.

Meanwhile, Hillary steals an Edwards line. Pathetic, really.

BTW, did you hear about McCain's $1mil private loan issue? He borrowed the cash and his method of paying it back, if his campaign tanked, was going to be to file for matching funds, and then use that money to pay it back. How is that not a crime?

[Maverick9911]

McCain wins Wisconsin - immediately begins harping on Obama's "eloquent but empty" message, how the Democratic party takes away the rights of the people (ha) and :jaw:, people who want to kill us!!! /fear

[pete]

NBC calls Wisconsin for Obama. Start shoveling the dirt on Clinton.

[Maverick9911]

Essentially 10 in a row when counting Hawaii, which I don't see him losing.

Last stand in the Alamo state for Hildawg.

[pete]

Two polls have Texas within 5 points, including SurveyUSA which has been one of the best pollsters this cycle.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=a727cce1-0546-4909-95cf-02f3bc9ab73c

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/18/poll.texas/index.html

SurveyUSA also has Ohio tightening to single digits as well.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=f333c0e2-db75-40c1-90c3-2a9f25af12e8

If Obama gets it to within 5% in these states, there's no way she'll have the delegate margins she needs to get back in the race. If that scenario plays out she should do what's best for the party and drop out and not drag this thing on to Pennsylvania. She won't, but she should.

[Maverick9911]

Now she's playing the "just an orator" tune.

Looks like he's gonna get the last word in, unless they put Huckabee on later. I'm anxious to see if he has a few more barbs than usual in this latest address.


Crap Hillary, shut up...Obama's trying to talk.

[pete]

Old political primary trick here... winner gets to pre-empt the losers speech. Kerry was good at this in 2004. Edwards never got more than a couple of minutes of free national TV before they ran him on stage.

[pete]

The contrast between Obama's and even Clinton's events and McCain's is striking. The former two seem to be speaking arena/convention atmospheres. McCain looked like he was speaking in a morgue.

[Maverick9911]

Yeah I know - that pasty, tight faced undertaker next to McCain didn't blink her eyes once during the whole...oh wait, that was his wife.

The women behind Clinton looked like they were watching a badminton match. Obama's people look and sound like its the convention already.

[Maverick9911]

"I don't want our teachers teaching thru the test"

I bet thousands of Florida teachers watching this speech just applauded that.

[Maverick9911]

Wow

[RSchmitz]

Yep, I payed very close attention to what he had to say about teaching, including increasing teachers pay and not teaching to the test. About damn time somebody started paying closer attention to what the teachers, aka the ones who are actually in education are saying. :cheer2:

Obama looks dead tired tonight though, he doesn't have his normal flare. He had a couple of 6 second pauses between words, and looked at his sheet, which is the first time I have ever seen him do that. I had to turn the television off, its the same I have been hearing for the past month except he is so exhausted he can't spill it out, I find myself saying what he is saying before he does:wave:

[RSchmitz]

Wow


Elaborate

[Maverick9911]

Just all I could come up with. Yeah it was long, but I was just speechless (not to sound like an Obama worshipper but it was just all I could muster up).

Obama looks dead tired tonight though, he doesn't have his normal flare. He had a couple of 6 second pauses between words, and looked at his sheet, which is the first time I have ever seen him do that.

I couldn't tell if he was just tired or it he was paying close attention to probably the most crucial speech of his campaign. He's been taking a lot of attacks from Clinton, more from McCain as he assumes Barack will be his opponent and now even his wife is being thrown into the fray. The central focus of the Clinton/McCain attacks lately (and especially tonight) have been "speeches and little else - no ideas". Tonight, at least in my opinion, he served a mix of inspirational speech and a stump speech of issues.

I was sitting here with my dad, who likes Obama but has been adamant about not giving him his vote because of his inexperience, perceived lack of concern regarding lower income families, the troops, whether he would defend the country properly, etc. I think at the end of this speech, he's listening. He may not vote for Obama in November and I certainly know he won't immediately change his mind after one 45 minute speech, but I know he's listening now.

That's what I got out of this, at least. The hardcore Obama supporters are full of energy and hope. The detractors are starting to see where he stands and what he wants to achieve, rather than just assuming he is trying to sell snake oil disguised as false hope. He knows it is going to get much tougher in the months ahead and simply "Yes We Can" isn't going to cut it. He's going to have to be much more careful about what he says and what he doesn't say and while it may affect his natural eloquence, if he sticks to his ideals without selling out to advisers those will resonate louder than any extemporaneous speeches.

That's just my opinion lol

[pete]

He was tired and he was speaking extemporaneously without a teleprompter, so he wasn't as smooth and his speech wasn't as tightly put together as it could have been.

Part of that was because they rushed him on the stage to cut off Clinton begging for money in her speech. She mentioned her loan to her own campaign once and I think she mentioned her website a couple of times before Obama pre-empted the rest of her speech. That was a plea for money, plain and simple. She raised money on the internet at a good clip after Super Tuesday, but after 9 straight defeats the spigot might start running dry. Ohio and Texas are hugely expensive states to buy media in. I imagine she probably will have enough cash to get her ads on the air there, but if things go on to Pennsylvania, she might be too cash strapped to get enough ads up on the air. Obama's making money hand over fist over the internet, and will just keep making more and more as this winning streak continues and people keep hopping on the bandwagon.

Bottom line, I think she's screwed. She's down over 150 pledged delegates and she's got to win 65% of the delegates in places like Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania to win the pledged delegate race and she's running out of dough.

[RSchmitz]

lol Maverick, didn't mean to sound so irritable. I actually listen to him quite often so to me he just seemed dull. His policies he actually went over the night after he won the Potomac Primaries in Janesville, and I was happy then. He always adds at least one good thing to every one of his speeches, and the rest is just a repeat, for instance he included meeting with "enemies" and quoted Kennedy tonight(with emphasis on the quote), which he hasn't mentioned since his debates when Edwards was still in the running. I remember that distinctly because Hillary came off like a pompous bitch saying that she wouldn't meet with her enemies because it would be stupid and undermine the security of the nation...and then went on to say she would send emissaries first before meeting with them. Implying that Obama had meant he would just drive a Cadillac to the nearest terrorist training camp and ask for an oratory. And you said he shouldn't listen to his advisers, on the contrary he has said he has surrounded himself with intelligent and loyal staff members who are willing and confident enough to question his decisions; hinting that Bush and current Washington politics have surrounded themselves with "yes men".

A few more "substance" items he added tonight to his speech; leading the world through economics and policies instead of strictly military. He mentioned some specifics to help global warming, such as pushing harder for biodegradable fuel for cars. He double emphasized protecting the nation when it needed to be protected, showing that he wasn't a pure pacifist and reassuring potential Republican voters. And a few other points that I have already forgotten. It is actually bothering me because he said something big tonight that got me interested and I already forgot it. The more I hear about his policies, the more I like; but the one thing I haven't heard is how he plans to do it. Those specifics will probably be left out until the general debate, and there are questions I have concerning other issues, like the trade deficit, NASA, research grants, et cetera. You can say you are going to change the world and mean it, but explaining how you are actually going to do it is the hard part.

Thursdays debate should be interesting, I wonder how Hillary will act being that it is the first time she will have a debate; outside looking in to the nomination.

[Maverick9911]

And you said he shouldn't listen to his advisers, on the contrary he has said he has surrounded himself with intelligent and loyal staff members who are willing and confident enough to question his decisions; hinting that Bush and current Washington politics have surrounded themselves with "yes men".

I should've elaborated a little more on that for I see where I made a mistake - you're absolutely correct in that he does have very intelligent and loyal staffers. What worries me, and I'll be paranoid until November, is that he'll suffer the same fate of Gore (the ones who told him to be his overly cautious, wooden former self who distanced himself from Clinton) and Kerry (who never quite let him attack Bush and the Swift Boaters with the same tenacity they had towards him and Edwards). It's just me being paranoid about those select few advisers that may want him to go Tony Dungy at times when he needs to go balls out is all, not the majority of his staffers.

Thursdays debate should be interesting, I wonder how Hillary will act being that it is the first time she will have a debate; outside looking in to the nomination

What's the over/under on how many times we hear "35 years of experience"?

I wish he could give us a rebate on Marc Denis' contract.

[RSchmitz]

Yes We can? lol

I am actually quite reassured in Obama's advisors after Hillary's recent negative attacks on him. Whoever is behind the scenes helping him organize his reactions and what he will say has been right on, the polls reflect that. The whole bunch of them know how to run a campaign, with Obama and Michelle being the anchor to it all of course. My only concern is whether or not he will be able to organize a successful staff once he enters the White House. I am also somewhat concerned with Obama himself, his years as a civil rights activist concern me. How liberal is he really? Will he reinstate affirmative action? How extensive will his welfare plan be, will he be giving away money to people who abuse it? Will he secure the borders from illegal immigrants? So far he has corrected my doubts, but there is much more that I am not sure about. And then of course there are certain things that may be beyond his control, the corruption in the system, et cetera.

My number one concern is sort of in-line with the whole rhetoric issue. Obama is talking a big game, and he admits it will be tough. But he is giving off a super man type image, and there is nothing wrong with that if he can deliver. But can he? If he wins the term and doesn't deliver, you could have a backlash. He may be a great president, but many voters are expecting him to instantly fix issues that have gone unchecked for eight years, and many more that will probably take decades to remedy. People are expecting change, and change isn't always good. And then those who don't want change will resist; will make for a potential volatile presidency. And then risk number three, he turns out to be a sorry president who is all words and no action.

[pete]

Polls, polls, polls!

In Texas...

ABC/WaPo:

Clinton 48%
Obama 47%

Rasmussen Reports:

Clinton 47%
Obama 44%

Constituency Dynamics:

Clinton 46%
Obama 45%

In Ohio...

ABC News/WaPo:

Clinton 50%
Obama 43%

The margin of error in all 4 polls is +/- 4%.

Draw your own conclusions.

[RSchmitz]

Debate time

[MUDSHARK]

Was it your Patrick Moynahan that said issues are the last refuge of a scoundrel?

[RSchmitz]

Here comes the venom. I thought Hillary was going to make it through the debate w/o it but here it comes. Great debate so far from Obama, and Hillary was making some interesting points up until now.

[WaiverWire]

She is going to hand him the race tonight on a silver plater

[RSchmitz]

I kind of feel as if CNN is on Obama's side tonight. Clinton has been cut off multiple times, the questions are sort of aimed towards Obama, and right now they didn't let Clinton respond, they went to a break.

Obama didn't need it though, all he had to do was maintain tonight, and instead he has made some great points. I was worried too, he was visibly nervous at the start.

[WaiverWire]

there she goes being a pushy bitch :nono:

[RSchmitz]

I don't mind her wanting to get her point in, they cut her off at the break. But I thought it was really funny that the crowd clapped at her counter point, they were cheering for LBJ's plan and she at the end said that it wouldn't work:noidea:

[RSchmitz]

Hillary is crying

[Maverick9911]

Hillary's acting makes William Shatner look like friggin Olivier.

[Flycoon]

CNN.
Short for Clinton News Network. All of the networks will "pimp" the candidate with the most cash to spend on ads, Hillary wins that one.

[RSchmitz]

Short for Clinton News Network. All of the networks will "pimp" the candidate with the most cash to spend on ads, Hillary wins that one.

Yeah, I know, but it didn't look that way tonight.

[RSchmitz]

I knew she was going to start balling; she sucked the entire night during the debate and it was her last desperate chance to make an impression. Analysts are saying that she scored on that, God I hope not. Hopefully people are looked past her tears and see that she is more of a phony than Obama's "rhetoric".

If your wondering on the question where she started balling. They asked both of them what experience they brought with them to handle a crisis. Obama said his whole life. Hillary said "you all know I have gone through crisis's" referring to Bill's affair. And then she got "emotional" and started referring to the soldiers coming home having the real crisis.

[Maverick9911]

She's gonna regret that Xerox line. I thought Obama handled himself well after that little snip.

[pete]

I didn't watch the debate, but a lot of people online are saying her answer to the last question almost sounded like a concession. Did you all see it that way?

Were I advising her, I would tell her to cut a deal with Obama. She has enough money and support to go nuclear on Obama and drag this on another month even though she has no chance of winning, and McCain's people will have that month to test messaging against Obama and get ready for the general election campaign. The threat of that scenario might be enough to pursuade Obama and his people to accept her on the ticket. The question is whether her negatives would energize the Republicans and be a drag on their campaign, or whether the VP slot would just allow her to be the cold blooded attack dog she's best suited to be. I lean toward the latter conclusion and I actually think she could play the role of the Democratic version of Dick Cheney to a tee.

[Maverick9911]

I saw it as more of a last ditch effort to try and tug at the heartstrings and pull in some extra votes like she did with the crying cafe moment in New Hampshire.

What seemed like more of a concession was her lauding Obama and remarking how proud she was to be there with him. We'll see just how proud she is come March 4.

[RSchmitz]

I've heard the same, on CNN and some sites, but I didn't see it that way. She did have a great response, but it was hard to hear it through the tears. I thought it was a strategic ploy on her part to touch some voters off, she even used some of the same lines she used during her "emotional" period before the NH primary. As for accepting her on the ticket, his campaign is going really strong, he is poised to win; I think he should get whomever he feels is the best on the ticket with him and not settle for less just because he is afraid of having a rougher time on his way to the presidency, and thats the way I think he will ultimately go. If he believes what he has been saying anyways

[Maverick9911]

I've heard she's been dead set on Bill Richardson as her VP. Obama would likely have a bevy of candidates to choose from (Bayh, Biden, Edwards, perhaps Clinton etc.)

Oh if only we knew whom Al Gore would endorse.






http://gallery.speedguide.net/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=269&g2_serialNumber=1

[Sotnos]

Hillary said "you all know I have gone through crisis's" referring to Bill's affair.
eew you just made me really glad i didn't watch any of this :puke:

[pete]

Obama would never in a million years pick Bayh as his VP. Never in a million years. In fact, if I was to bet money, I'd say Bayh being an uncharasmatic DLC puppet would be the perfect VP candidate for Clinton.

What I have heard is that Obama wants to pick Webb as his VP. It would certainly help him in Virginia and it would definitely make the conservative's heads explode if he picked Ronald Reagan's ex-Secretary of the Navy as his running mate. McCain's already got problems shoring up that part of his base as it is. And he definitely would bring some military and foreign policy bona fides to the campaign. He'd probably help a lot against McCain. On paper it's an excellent pick. In practice, Webb scares the bejezus out of me. He's run exactly one competitive campaign for public office in his entire life. I just don't know what would happen if you threw Webb on the national campaign trail against the Republican mud-throwing machine, and he strikes me as the kind of guy who has a serious temper, and tempers aren't good politically.

[RSchmitz]

I have heard Obama needs a strong foreign policy VP. I have heard Bill Richardson's name thrown around; as well as Kathleen Sebelius, governor of Republican Kansas. The one name I haven't heard has been John Kerry, why is that?

[Maverick9911]

Jim Webb worries me because of that little incident where he said he wanted to slug Bush over W asking about his son in Iraq. The GOP Hitmen would salivate over those kinds of ads.

Another candidate I forgot to mention was the Governor of Kansas, Kathleen Sebelius (good call, TBFANATIC) - the one who picked to deliver the official DP response to the last State of the Union address this year. I know little of her but she's very highly regarded in the party it seems.

Meanwhile our own Governor is out trolling with McCain trying to get his own name on the GOP ticket.

I'm not sure about Kerry - in my opinion wouldn't he kinda conflict with Obama's message of change and new blood? If not that, the whole mess with him and the "get good grades or else you'll go to Iraq" comments seem to have taken him out of the equation, cause I really thought he was going to try and run again since his warchest was still stocked.

[pete]

Because John Kerry has been absolutely, thoroughly smeared by the Republicans and is damaged goods politically. I could see him potentially moved into a cabinet position, but no way as VP. The whole "if you don't get an education you end up in Iraq" gaffe was the last nail in his coffin. The media frenzy over that in 2006 was the most tenacious political assasination I've seen since they replayed the Dean scream on a loop for a week in 2003.

Sherrod Brown would still be my pick.

[RSchmitz]

Since you missed it Pete, here is the transcript for the last question of the debate

BROWN: We have time for just one final question, and we thought we would sort of end on a more philosophical question. You've both spent a lot of time talking about leadership, about who's ready and who has the right judgment to lead if elected president.

A leader's judgment is most tested at times of crisis. I'm wondering if both of you will describe what was the moment that tested you the most, that moment of crisis.

BROWN: Senator Obama?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I wouldn't point to a single moment. But what I look at is the trajectory of my life because, you know, I was raised by a single mom. My father left when I was two, and I was raised by my mother and my grandparents.

And, you know, there were rocky periods during my youth, when I made mistakes and was off course. And what was most important, in my life, was learning to take responsibility for my own actions, learning to take responsibility for not only my own actions but how I can bring people together to actually have an impact on the world.

And so, working as a community organizer on the streets of Chicago, with ordinary people, bringing them together and organizing them to provide jobs and health care, economic security to people who didn't have it, then working as a civil rights attorney and rejecting the jobs on Wall Street to fight for those who were being discriminated against on the job -- that cumulative experience, I think, is the judgment that I now bring.

OBAMA: It's the reason that I have the capacity to bring people together, and it's the reason why I am determined to make sure that the American people get a government that is worthy of their decency and their generosity.

(APPLAUSE)

BROWN: Senator Clinton?

CLINTON: Well, I think everybody here knows I've lived through some crises and some challenging moments in my life. And...

(APPLAUSE)

And I am grateful for the support and the prayers of countless Americans.

But people often ask me, "How do you do it?" You know, "How do you keep going?" And I just have to shake my head in wonderment, because with all of the challenges that I've had, they are nothing compared to what I see happening in the lives of Americans every single day. along with Senator McCain, as the only two elected officials, to speak at the opening at the Intrepid Center at Brooke Medical Center in San Antonio, a center designed to take care of and provide rehabilitation for our brave young men and women who have been injured in war.

And I remember sitting up there and watching them come in. Those who could walk were walking. Those who had lost limbs were trying with great courage to get themselves in without the help of others. Some were in wheelchairs and some were on gurneys. And the speaker representing these wounded warriors had had most of his face disfigured by the results of fire from a roadside bomb.

CLINTON: You know, the hits I've taken in life are nothing compared to what goes on every single day in the lives of people across our country.

And I resolved at a very young age that I'd been blessed and that I was called by my faith and by my upbringing to do what I could to give others the same opportunities and blessings that I took for granted.

That's what gets me up in the morning. That's what motivates me in this campaign.

(APPLAUSE)

And, you know, no matter what happens in this contest -- and I am honored, I am honored to be here with Barack Obama. I am absolutely honored.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Whatever happens, we're going to be fine. You know, we have strong support from our families and our friends. I just hope that we'll be able to say the same thing about the American people, and that's what this election should be about.

(APPLAUSE)

BROWN: All right, a standing ovation here in Austin, Texas. Our thanks to Senator Barack Obama and Senator Hillary Clinton. We appreciate your time tonight.

(APPLAUSE)

And to John and Jorge as well.

[RSchmitz]

I think the ovation she got at the end was because people thought she was conceding, but CNN is putting a different spin on it.

[pete]

Jim Webb worries me because of that little incident where he said he wanted to slug Bush over W asking about his son in Iraq. The GOP Hitmen would salivate over those kinds of ads.

Nah. I don't think that particular incident would hurt him. I think it humanizes him and shows he's got some backbone. There was a poll that came out this week that says Bush has a 19% approval rating and most approval polls have him in the low 30%'s tops. I have a hard time believing saying you were tempted to slug someone so deeply unpopular would be bad politically. Now, actually slugging him? THAT would be bad. And that would be the danger with Webb. No one knows what would happen if he was really really provoked because he's not a seasoned campaigner.

I think the whole idea of having to choose someone with military or foreign policy chops just to counteract McCain is a dumb strategy anyway. You're basically allowing McCain to dictate the focus of the campaign and decide what issues it's going to be centered on, and that's stupid, especially considering polls show people are becoming more concerned about the economy right now and are basically fatigued about Iraq/terrorism/foreign policy. I'd rather Obama ran on what is his strength and also the Democratic Party's strength and ran on a platform of economic fairness and kitchen table, middle-class populism. Get someone like Sherrod Brown or John Edwards on the ticket and dictate to McCain, who is running from behind, what issues the campaign is going to be about. Play the game on your home field, not his.

[pete]

Since you missed it Pete, here is the transcript for the last question of the debate

I watched it on YouTube. I don't think she meant it to be a concession, but I think a lot of people heard it that way, which is a huge problem for her campaign if she's still serious about staying in this thing.

And yes, I think that's why she got such a big applause for what she said.

[WaiverWire]

It is time to turn the page on the Clinton's and move on. If Obama wants a female on the ticket, and one with a very good track record, he needs to take a serious look at Kathleen Sebelius.

[Maverick9911]

Jesus, Ralph Nader...ENOUGH ALREADY!

[Avery86]

Jesus, Ralph Nader...ENOUGH ALREADY!

My thoughts exactly. Hasn't playing the spoiler in two elections gotten him his fill? Absolutely foolish. Is the GOP paying him off? :tongue:

[astro]

spoiler? if the democrats had better candidates they would have been able to beat GW.

Just look at GW's record as governor of Texas... and Gore couldn't beat him more than he did.

[Avery86]

spoiler? if the democrats had better candidates they would have been able to beat GW.

Just look at GW's record as governor of Texas... and Gore couldn't beat him more than he did.

Well, it was tongue in cheek.

[Flycoon]

spoiler? if the democrats had better candidates they would have been able to beat GW.

Just look at GW's record as governor of Texas... and Gore couldn't beat him more than he did.

Thank the Supreme Court and the electoral college. Gore won the popular vote by 500,000. Who knows how many more votes weren't counted.

But that is all turds down the toilet, move on.

[Flycoon]

Jesus, Ralph Nader...ENOUGH ALREADY!

I don't know who he would draw votes from, the Obama crowd probably doesn't even know who this knucklehead is.

[Hoek]

Total attention whore as usual. Right now it looks like some Greens want to draft him to be their candidate again but barring that he probably wont be on enough state ballots to matter anyway.

[pete]

The 2000 election wasn't really about Al Gore. The American electorate made Al Gore pay for Bill Clinton's infidelity in office because they couldn't get at Bill. If Bill kept his zipper up, Gore would've won by 10-15 points. Take that to the bank.

[pete]

Right now it looks like some Greens want to draft him to be their candidate again

Considering the alternative is Cynthia McKinney, whose reputation is mud and will only tarnish their brand, can you blame them?

[TexasBolt]

If Nader pulled even 1% of the vote I would be shocked. Everyone knows his bit by now and they see right through it.

[Maverick9911]

Gotta love the Clinton camp making a huge fuss over a picture showing Barack Obama in traditional Muslim garb during a goodwill visit and then trying to attack him for taking offense to their motives.

[the_narrow_way]

And her making fun of Obama's speaking mannerisms? How embarrassingly low-brow and desperate.

[TexasBolt]

Gotta love the Clinton camp making a huge fuss over a picture showing Barack Obama in traditional Muslim garb during a goodwill visit and then trying to attack him for taking offense to their motives.

That's Exhibit A of a campaign that's basically going down the toilet.

[RSchmitz]

Absolutely despicable. She is no better than Bush

[RSchmitz]

Anybody watching the debate? I don't understand the reference, but Hillary said if you watched Saturday night live to give Obama another pillow. And she started complaining about how she always gets the first question, implying the media is out to get her.

[WaiverWire]

I'm watching. The more I have to look at her the more I hope he sends her backing back to New York.

She is no better than Bill, in fact she is worse.

[Maverick9911]

I don't understand the reference, but Hillary said if you watched Saturday night live to give Obama another pillow.

They had a parody of last week's debate and the panel kept asking Obama questions like "Are you comfortable? Is there anything we can get you? Would you like a pillow or a comfier chair??" and did nothing but cut off Hillary and ridicule her. All the anchors had a crush on Obama (and one of the audience questions came from Obama Girl) and had mock orgasms when he spoke.

It was probably the worst SNL political parody I have ever seen.

[RSchmitz]

She looks semi-weak on her positions and in trying to shake him up. But I am simply amazed with Obama. He is cool as a cucumber.

[WaiverWire]

I am hoping that Obama is the choice to run against McCain as I feel we could not go wrong with either as President.

[Maverick9911]

This is the first debate of theirs I haven't seen - I had tons of other stuff to do and I forgot all about taping it. In a nutshell, I assume Obama is looking good based on the responses here?

I heard she had to seriously whip him in this one to slow his momentum (astute, I know) - has she failed miserably or is she getting some punches in? After her bizzare rage over the healthcare circulations in Ohio, I would think she'd be coming in with guns blazing since her entire campaign is riding on Tuesday.

Hopefully Obama gets the last word in this one and preempts any tears.

[WaiverWire]

She represents old politics. We need a change and Obama is one hell of a speaker and carries himself with class, something the Office of President has not had for 20 years.

[RSchmitz]

Its funny, I said he looked cool as a cucumber and then one of the analysts for NBC said the same thing.

This is what I mean, one of the first questions asked they brought up the arabic clothes Obama was wearing. Obama said that Hillary had publicly said that her campaign didn't do it, he said believed her, and it was a non-issue. That was it, he switched the topic to health care and bammo.

On many questions tonight Obama said, "yep, Hillary makes a great case"; and moved on, and several times said that she would make a great nominee and a better president than McCain. The closest she came tonight to complimenting Barrack was saying that she was honored to debate with him. He didn't look to make arguments, he simply side stepped all her attacks.

Another point was when he "denounced" the anti-semitic reverend. That wasn't enough for Hillary, she brought up her own past and that she out right rejected them, and that is what she would do as president, take firmer action. Obama responded that he didn't think that there was a difference between "denouncing" and "rejecting", but said he would concede the point and that he would denounce and reject the reverend. He got some good cheers from the crowd on that, cool as a cucumber.

Apart from Obama, Hillary didn't have her normal energetic self tonight. She looked half tired, half like she was about to cry. She complained at the very beginning about her unfair treatment; citing the recent Saturday Night Live where they made it look like the media was making Obama look extremely comfortable, saying "Obama needs another pillow". On the healthcare issue she would keep on holding the topic, and then lay an accusation on Barrack so he would have to respond, she pushed things and tried to make an argument.

In the end, if I am a neutral on-looker Obama looked great tonight. He sounded confident, like he knew what he was going to do. He sounded funny, and he was a non-aggressor. He also showed significant leadership that Hillary has not showed. Good leaders can forgive and forget, and he has done that COUNTLESS times, but at the same time he isn't afraid to defend himself from accusations. For instance at the health care issue. This guy is a true role model for aspiring leaders and children to follow, and I get more excited about the prospects of him being president every day.

[TexasBolt]

I LOL'ed when she couldn't come up with the name of the likely new Russian president. I mean this isn't some obscure African nation that's never in the news, it's freaking Russia.

[Flycoon]

I am hoping that Obama is the choice to run against McCain as I feel we could not go wrong with either as President.

I liked McCain until he started pandering to GWB and the "base" a few years back. At one point I recall he made disparaging remarks about Evangelicals, now you would think he is one of them. Talk about a flip-flopper.

[WaiverWire]

show me a politician that has not flipped and/or flop at one time or another.......it's in their genes

[Donnie D]

show me a politician that has not flipped and/or flop at one time or another.......it's in their genes

And who hasn't changed or evolved their position over time? I respect an individual who can say that they believed something but that they were wrong and change their position.

In business, that's adapting to a changing market and is considered the mark of a good leader, in government, it's flip flopping.

[RSchmitz]

And who hasn't changed or evolved their position over time? I respect an individual who can say that they believed something but that they were wrong and change their position.

In business, that's adapting to a changing market and is considered the mark of a good leader, in government, it's flip flopping.

yep; until last night Hillary has refused to acknowledge that she made a mistake in voting for Bush to go to Iraq despite all the other candidates saying they would have redone the vote.

[Maverick9911]

I liked McCain until he started pandering to GWB and the "base" a few years back. At one point I recall he made disparaging remarks about Evangelicals, now you would think he is one of them.

Agreed. Once he did that, he lost me. He had that now infamous quote about not wanting to stand with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell on the right and Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan on the left. Then next thing you know he's standing in church robes alongside good ol' Outhouse Jerry.

My right wing friends (or at least the ones who just say "I don't want to pay taxes, so I'm a Republican") used to tell me "Yeah but every politician will cozy up to those types if it means the presidency - you can't tell me Obama wouldn't play nice with Louis Farrakhan."

Based on what I've read about last night, it sure doesn't sound like he will.

[Hoek]

To the contrary, on many an appearance at black churches Obama has actually called them out on their homophobic positions among other things.

There's a difference between revisiting or reconsidering specific policies (which is respectable and indeed should be encouraged) and just plain kissing the ass of whoever it is you need in order to win.

[RSchmitz]

I am watching a documentary on John McCain. Jeez, what an inspiration, he almost died twice before he was captured by the North Vietnamese. He was tortured constantly and tried to kill himself so that he wouldn't have to sign a war crimes confession. Years later he was finally released. Now he is refusing to give in to conservative talk show radio hosts who have probably never gone through an ounce of hardship in their lifes. He is also standing by his values and is going to hold an honorable campaign without being a bigot, which the far right hates.

[the_narrow_way]

While I respect his service, I do not respect his recent spate of denials and then the next day backtracking. It really hurts his credibility in my book.

[Bolthed]

They had a parody of last week's debate and the panel kept asking Obama questions like "Are you comfortable? Is there anything we can get you? Would you like a pillow or a comfier chair??" and did nothing but cut off Hillary and ridicule her. All the anchors had a crush on Obama (and one of the audience questions came from Obama Girl) and had mock orgasms when he spoke.

It was probably the worst SNL political parody I have ever seen.

It was clearly inspired by bias. And judging from her comments in the opening monologue, much of it had to have come from former head writer Tina Fey. It's not a huge surprise, though, that some New Yorkers are big-time Hillary backers, but that first sketch was painful to watch. The funny thing is, it comes off as a bunch of whining, so I'm kinda surprised Hillary would use it publicly and basically join the whining. Shows where her campaign is - it's last throes.

[pete]

Netroots starting to back Sherrod Brown for VP?

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=2FA490D3547DC91686F6BA24BC 5660B7?diaryId=4227

He'd be an huge assett to Obama.

[TexasBolt]

Well, here comes the Hillary Clinton "win at all costs" express. She's threatening to go to court over the primary/caucus system in Texas. In a related story, she's now trailing Obama in the polls here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080229/ap_on_el_pr/texas_caucus_challenge

Don't worry Hillary, I'll be more than happy to help kick your ass twice on Tuesday.

[RSchmitz]

She wants to screw the democratic party now if she doesn't get the nomination. We are counting on you TexasBolt

[Maverick9911]

Hillary's Last Stand??

[Maverick9911]

That was fast...Obama takes Vermont.

The appetizer is in.

[RSchmitz]

12 in a row, very anxious

[jaydeedub]

Well Clinton is leading in Ohio thus far. I'm sure if she win's it they'll keep going even if she loses Texas. Maybe until the PA vote...
This is like the song that never ends.

[RSchmitz]

Not even 1% in for Ohio yet; but I still am worried

[jaydeedub]

Not even 1% in for Ohio yet; but I still am worried


I think she is a lock for Ohio, but she may end up getting hammered in Texas. If she does poorly in the Texas primary I could see a bashing in the Texas caucuses. At first I thought maybe she'd barely just win the Texas primary but lose in the caucuses which would've/should've given Obama more delegates overall for the state.

[Maverick9911]

The Not Always So Straight Talk Express has finally derailed Huckabee's Jesus Mobile.

[RSchmitz]

argh, I wanted him to sweep tonight but I don't think it is going to happen.

[jaydeedub]

Uh-oh, Clinton is getting closer in the Texas Primaries....even if she wins the Texas primaries there's still the Texas caucuses. Texas maybe up in the air until midnight.
She also won Rhode Island, so the Obama sweep is over.

[RSchmitz]

On CNN they are saying the big cities with the large African American vote have yet to be counted, so hes probably going to win Texas. I just hope he makes a comeback in Ohio

[pete]

Cleveland and Cincinnatti have not come in at all yet from Ohio. That's why the networks haven't called it. It will be a lot like Missouri where Obama was losing big early, but then St. Louis came in and he won in a photo finish. Now, mind you, I don't think he'll win Ohio, but he won't get blown out like it appears now.

McCain is speaking. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. There are rocks with more energy than this guy.

[pete]

McCain says he's going to run on free trade. He's suicidal.

[RSchmitz]

Was I hearing him correctly when he argued against the USA becoming self-sufficient?

[TexasBolt]

At my local caucus there were about 10 people there to sign for Hillary and at least 30-40 for Obama. For what that's worth.

[pete]

He was arguing against the United States becoming protectionist on trade. That's the surest way to get you hat fed to you in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and just about anywhere else in the industrial Midwest.

[Maverick9911]

I like Mike Huckabee's pat on the back for the Republicans running the only clean and honorable campaigns. That was worth a chuckle or two.

[TexasBolt]

I like Mike Huckabee's pat on the back for the Republicans running the only clean and honorable campaigns. That was worth a chuckle or two.

Well yeah, I mean if you don't count the Republicans who turned into completely different people, or who shoved 9/11 so far down everyone's throats it came out the other end... then yeah, it was clean and honorable.

[Maverick9911]

I still remember McCain's exchange with Romney (was it in Michigan?) about how all the jobs sent overseas were never coming back. I'm sure he's changed his stance several times since then.

[Maverick9911]

or who shoved 9/11 so far down everyone's throats it came out the other end

CRAAPPPP, 9-11....gotta go hide under the sheets before the Ay-Rabs come grab me in the night. :bolt:

Lemme go vote GOP first, however.

[pete]

I still remember McCain's exchange with Romney (was it in Michigan?) about how all the jobs sent overseas were never coming back.

I forgot about that. I remember watching it live when he said it. For a guy who has been in politics forever he's made several gaffes like that which will be easy attack ads to mint in the Fall. The 100 years in Iraq quote will be an ad. The flippant talk about bombing Iran will be an ad, at least in places like the Northeast and Minnesota. The free trade stuff will be a couple of ads. He's just not a disciplined campaigner, and there's also about a million pictures of this guy hugging Bush. And he's got no energy. It's a strong statement on how unremarkable the rest of the Republican field was that McCain won this thing.

[RSchmitz]

Hillary and Obama now tied in Texas.

You know, the one thing I don't get throughout the campaigns is the whole African American appeal that is going on. There are tons and tons of people that come on CNN or MSNBC and talk about "black america". They talk like Obama is going to do this and that because he is black. I can't stand that, his campaign is about unification yet these people talk in the context of separation.

The polls don't really argue with them though, like 80%+ African Americans vote for Obama. And a lot of women vote for Hillary too but to a lesser extent.

[RSchmitz]

They are calling Ohio for Billary. Bad night

[Flycoon]

CRAAPPPP, 9-11....gotta go hide under the sheets before the Ay-Rabs come grab me in the night. :bolt:

Lemme go vote GOP first, however.

Be very afraid, a felafel wrap will soon be added at McDonalds and KFC.

[RSchmitz]

Clinton inches in front of Obama in Texas

[Flycoon]

McCain says he's going to run on free trade. He's suicidal.

The long lasting effects of the torture he endured he wouldn't vote against. What a c-f**k he would be in the Oval Office.

[TexasBolt]

You could almost run the infamous 1964 LBJ mushroom cloud commercial against McCain this year and it would still be relevant.

[Maverick9911]

The shrew is acting like she just won the damn office.

You didn't really "win" Florida, moron.

[RSchmitz]

God I feel like I am being lectured by my mom

[pete]

She's touting that despicable 3am phone ad. That fearmongering garbage has no place in the Democratic primary.

[RSchmitz]

She just locked herself into the remaining contests. Great

[TexasBolt]

The math is going to get her in the end. Even if she narrowly wins Texas there's a good chance Obama comes out of it with more delegates because he owns caucuses. There are still several states coming up that really favor him (Mississippi, Oregon, other red states that would never ever vote for Clinton). And if she goes into the convention trailing in delegates and somehow ends up winning, all hell is going to break loose.

Of course, she's deluded enough to push ahead with that anyway.

[RSchmitz]

Did you double vote Tbolt?

[TexasBolt]

Yes, and I took my wife with me to the caucus too so she could double-vote as well. Like I said, there was a clear advantage for Obama at our caucus (combination of five precincts).

[RSchmitz]

Just wondering, I heard that it was pure hell in some precincts trying to vote

[Jester47]

The math is going to get her in the end. Even if she narrowly wins Texas there's a good chance Obama comes out of it with more delegates because he owns caucuses. There are still several states coming up that really favor him (Mississippi, Oregon, other red states that would never ever vote for Clinton). And if she goes into the convention trailing in delegates and somehow ends up winning, all hell is going to break loose.

Of course, she's deluded enough to push ahead with that anyway.


Clinton Wins Big, But Math is Troubling (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1719614,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner)

[TexasBolt]

She really pissed me off this morning on the news shows. "Maybe Obama can be my running mate!" She's printing off wedding invitations before she's even gotten engaged.

[CTLightning26]

Very bad night. Very bad.
I think, maybe, a lot of Obama supporters thought it was over. I just can't imagine why anyone who is a democrat would walk into that booth and vote for Hillary. Just don't get it.
Whoever wins, I want them to pick another running mate. I think it's foolish to put them together.
I've always liked McCain. I don't agree with probably half of what he stands for. But i sorta trust him. I can't explain it. The only thing that I fear is his rhetoric toward Iran and the fact that he changed his mind about the Tax cuts for the Rich.....It's funny, these republican strategists make it out like he was against tax cuts for everyone and now he is for tax cuts....
Well, Hell, I'm all for Tax Cuts!!!!!! Who isn't? I just see no reason why the top 1 percent are the only ones who need one...
:flame:

[RSchmitz]

You know, I am really starting to wonder just how big of a roll the cross-overs played in this.

[Avery86]

You know, I am really starting to wonder just how big of a roll the cross-overs played in this.

You're not the only one. I'd be curious to see those statistics .. at least, for Texas. Her win in Ohio is understandable and not really surprising.

[RSchmitz]

I would like to see some exit poll questions asking the question

[TexasBolt]

You're not the only one. I'd be curious to see those statistics .. at least, for Texas. Her win in Ohio is understandable and not really surprising.

Not only do I think this was a big factor, I think it will become an even bigger factor now that McCain has clinched the nomination. Obama needs to get out in front of this and tell anyone who will listen that she's getting GOP crossover votes because she's unelectable.

[RSchmitz]

He won't. One of his strengths, getting Independents and Republicans to vote for him, is now a big weakness though. I just did a quick check up on the remaining states that have open and closed primaries or caucuses. Lets do a little fun math and some speculation of our own. Here is a list of the remaining states and when they vote in descending order.

Wyoming Closed Caucuses RED
Mississippi Open Primaries RED
Pennsylvania Closed Primaries BLUE
Guam Caucuses
Indiana Open Primaries RED
North Carolina Closed Primaries RED
West Virgina Open Primaries RED
Kentucky Closed Primaries RED
Oregon Closed Primaries BLUE
Montana Open Primary RED
South Dakota Closed Primary RED
Peurto Rico Caucuses

Okay, here is all the key information. The RED are states that are traditionally Republican, BLUE Democrats. Closed means that there will be no cross-overs...good(Obama can win over Republicans and Independents for November) and bad(Republicans who want to hurt DNC will vote for Hillary). And Obama does better in Caucuses than in Primaries. So looking at this board, we can test the theory early...this Tuesday when they do open primaries in Mississippi. Lots of Republicans, open primary. However, it is almost certain to go towards Obama, Hillary has no business being anywhere near Obama on the voting count. So come this Tuesday, if she is even close, you know that something fishy is going on.

So lets look at how this plays out. Assuming the crossover vote is just a conspiracy theory on our part, this is the way I see the States voting.

Wyoming Closed Caucuses OBama
Mississippi Open Primaries Obama
Pennsylvania Closed Primaries Clinton
Guam Caucuses Obama
Indiana Open Primaries Obama/Clinton
North Carolina Closed Primaries Obama
West Virgina Open Primaries Obama/Clinton
Kentucky Closed Primaries Obama
Oregon Closed Primaries Obama/Clinton
Montana Open Primary Obama
South Dakota Closed Primary Obama
Peurto Rico Caucuses Obama

Now, lets assume that the cross over vote isn't a conspiracy theory, here are the states that might be affected.

Mississippi Open Primaries Obama
Indiana Open Primaries Obama/Clinton
West Virgina Open Primaries Obama/Clinton
Montana Open Primary Obama

Out of those four, Indiana and West Virgina could turn. Now assuming that Clinton gets her way and Michigan and Florida have some kind of recount, bad news for Obama. They both have open primaries. Whats worse, Florida has a large Republican base, and both states could probably go either way. The good news is even in the worst case scenario, Obama probably still holds a pledged and total delegate lead going into Denver.

[RSchmitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHDXI3bVUCQ

[the_narrow_way]

Thanks TBFANATIC for posting that video clip. I was going to mention what Limbaugh and friends were up to. I used to not be a fan of the closed primary system, because I was thinking too honestly. I was thinking that everone, regardless of affiliation, should be able to vote for who they like. But, after realizing how it can be used for not so honest purposes (see: Limbaugh), I think that all primaries should be closed primaries.

[TexasBolt]

But, after realizing how it can be used for not so honest purposes (see: Limbaugh), I think that all primaries should be closed primaries.

The problem is that in states like Texas, you don't have to declare your political affiliation when you register to vote. You just go to the precinct and they ask you which ballot you want to fill out. They'd have to get everyone to re-register to vote.

[Flycoon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHDXI3bVUCQ

What a douche bag el rushbo is. Anyone who believes this guy has a shred of credibility as a journalist must swallow more oxycontin tha he does.

[Bolthed]

He's intentionally trying to sabotage the intent of the process. Shouldn't that be illegal or somehow not allowed or at the very least cause an uproar/backlash to shame him and his followers into thinking twice about taking a dump on our election process? Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick!

[Hoek]

This is yet another reason why the wholly undemocratic duopoly of Republicratic/Demopublican politics should fund and organize their own damn primary elections or however they want to do it instead of forcing the taxpayers to sponsor these shenanigans.

[Sotnos]

Shouldn't that be illegal or somehow not allowed or at the very least cause an uproar/backlash to shame him and his followers into thinking twice about taking a dump on our election process?
problem with that is, does anyone who still listens to that hypocritical idiot have any shame? :evil:

[TexasBolt]

problem with that is, does anyone who still listens to that hypocritical idiot have any shame? :evil:

No, because he tells them they shouldn't.

[Maverick9911]

CNN had a quick blurb about how Obama is already expected to win the Wyoming caucus with a double digit margin. It was during their tabloid show, however, so I'm not entirely confident in them.

Ok, now CNN.com has it on the main page. 58-41 percent lead.

Bill Clinton: A Clinton-Obama ticket would be 'unstoppable'
Posted: 06:04 PM ET
Bill Clinton and other supporters of his wife have suggested a joint ticket with Obama.

(CNN) — Even as Hillary Clinton's campaign attacked her rival, Barack Obama, for failing to "deliver on his promises," her husband, former President Bill Clinton said Saturday that a joint ticket pairing the two would be "almost unstoppable."

The former president referred to his wife's own comments that indicated a willingness to consider the prospect. "She said yesterday and she said the day after her big wins in Texas and Ohio and Rhode Island that she was very open to that and I think she answered explicitly 'Yes' yesterday," said Clinton during a Mississippi campaign appearance.

"I know that she has always been open to it, because she believes that if you can unite the energy and the new people that he's brought in and the people in these vast swaths of small town and rural America that she's carried overwhelmingly, if you had those two things together she thinks it'd be hard to beat."

He added that, in his view, Obama would win the "urban areas and the upscale voters" while Clinton claims "the traditional rural areas that we lost when President Reagan was president. If you put those two things together, you'd have an almost unstoppable force."

Hillary Clinton told a CBS interviewer earlier this week, shortly after she ended a string of 11 losses with wins in Texas, Ohio and Rhode Island, that a joint ticket "may be where this is headed. But of course we have to decide who is on the top of ticket. I think the people of Ohio very clearly said that it should be me."

The New York senator has made the suggestion in other interviews, as have her campaign surrogates. On Friday, Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell told the National Journal that it was important for the winner of the Democratic nomination to make the offer to the runner-up this year.

The Obama team has largely avoided making similar statements.

"Don't call us, Hillary. We'll call you"

[RSchmitz]

Despite a 17%+ lead throughout the day they didn't call it for Obama until 96% of the precincts were in. They also kept reiterating "Hillary and Obama both did good today", CNN is ridiculously biased.

[pete]

This is the #1 reason why I support Obama:

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/index.html

Obama. Has. Coat tails.

Long ones.

Today, in a special election, Democrat Bill Foster has pulled off the impossible and won election to the House in the blood red district of retiring former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert. Obama cut a television ad about a week and a half ago for Foster and Obama has been helping raise money for Foster over the internet to keep that ad going on a loop for that entire team.

I've been to this district. I stayed there for a week a couple of years ago on a vacation to Chicago. I visited Mies van der Rohe's Farnsworth House on the Fox River near Plano, and we found that taking the back country roads through these exurban counties well outside of Chicago was the best and only way to get into the city, so we saw quite a lot of this district.

It's very white. Old. Rural. Folks aren't very affluent there. In fact, I remember going to the grocery stores in Ottawa, Illinois and being surprised how many people there were on food stamps.

This isn't the overeducated, latte sipping, limousine liberal set that the Clinton people tell you are Obama's supporters. These aren't a bunch of wild eyed idealistic college kids either. These are folks who have made a hard living working the land, and this was a very reliable Republican district for a very long time. There were road signs throughout Hastert's home county, I recall, touting it was the home of the Speaker of the House.

And with one Midas touch from Barack Obama, Illinois' 14th district turned blue. I am amazed. I am beginning to believe this man is the Michael Jordan of politics.

gnaGlxUUFv4

[Maverick9911]

I am beginning to believe this man is the Michael Jordan of politics.

Obama needs one of these shirts

http://www.sptimes.com/News/120600/photos/sp-stud.jpg

[Bolthed]

One thing I hate is how many people are focusing on his security, and some of them openly admit that they are expecting him to be assassinated. It's like some kind of sick self-fulfilling prophecy of negativity, and I wish it would go away. (Although the story about the secret service recently shutting down the screening operation midway through filling up an arena was disturbing ... but has since been rectified.)

[TexasBolt]

Obama needs one of these shirts

http://www.sptimes.com/News/120600/photos/sp-stud.jpg

I wouldn't want to see the attack ads on that one.

[RSchmitz]

One thing I hate is how many people are focusing on his security, and some of them openly admit that they are expecting him to be assassinated. It's like some kind of sick self-fulfilling prophecy of negativity, and I wish it would go away. (Although the story about the secret service recently shutting down the screening operation midway through filling up an arena was disturbing ... but has since been rectified.)

I openly admit that I worry about it as well. It isn't a reason not to vote for him, but still; he compares himself most often to Lincoln and Kennedy and look what happened to those two. He has the added disadvantage that he is black, and that some ignorant conservatives think he is a Muslim terrorist. Look at what Iowa Republican congressman Steve King said, "The radical Islamists, the al-Qaeda ... would be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on Sept. 11."

Out of the 280 million people in the U.S., you don't think there is at least one nut case out there who has the impression that he is going to save America by taking him out? And there are definitely cracks in the impenetrable wall that is the secret service, no way can they protect him if he goes to an open public venue, which you can bet Obama is going to do. I am not sure if he expects that someone is going to make an attempt, or if he just doesn't care, very Julius Ceasar-esque if you ask me. I can't help but worry

[TexasBolt]

I am not sure if he expects that someone is going to make an attempt, or if he just doesn't care, very Julius Ceasar-esque if you ask me. I can't help but worry

If someone actually does assassinate him, it's going to make the 9/11 martyrdom and wrapping yourself in the flag look absolutely (pardon the pun) bush league. In a warped way, I think that's a good argument for why Obama shouldn't pick Hillary as his running mate if he wins.

[CTLightning26]

I picked up a NY Post at the grocery store this morning and the lady bagging, after seeing a picture of Obama and Hillary with a "dream team" headline, says "I don't want them together on the ticket." I said "I agree." She covered Obama's picture and said. "I only want her." I said, jokingly, "but she's a monster."
She retorted: "He's a crook." I'm, like, "What?" She goes "All the people he has working for him are getting arrested and he's making a secret deal with Canada." I looked at her in amazement.
THE MORAL: People over 60 should not be able to vote!!!!!!!!!!!
:brick:

[Maverick9911]

"All the people he has working for him are getting arrested and he's making a secret deal with Canada."

Obama has agreed to let Bin Laden take over Canada, have a massive Al Qaeda rally during halftime of the CFL Roughriders vs. Roughriders game and will place Terrance and Philip on the Supreme Court.

He's a sneaky bastard, eh?

[Sotnos]

"All the people he has working for him are getting arrested and he's making a secret deal with Canada." that must be the latest from right wing radio

[pete]

Actually, it's the latest from the Clinton campaign.

They're still pushing the Rezko story about Obama working for a law firm that did work for a Chicago slum lord during the 80's. That was the moment during the South Carolina debate when it became clear to me that Hillary does indeed have a monsterous side. It's quite shameful that her campaign has kept this whisper campaign going. It's very Rove-esque, and considering what was done to the Hillary with Whitewater, I am shocked she would sign off on using the exact same tactic against Obama.

The "secret deal with Canada" is a story that came out about a week and a half ago claiming that Obama's people made contact with the Canadian embassy to tell them not to believe Obama's tough rhetoric about NAFTA because he doesn't actually believe it. The Canadian embassy quickly denied the story and then last week there was another story that it was Hillary's people who actually reached out to the Canadians and told them not to worry about any anti-NAFTA rhetoric coming out of her campaign. That story was also quickly denied by the Canadians.

If I had to guess, there's some shennanigans going on inside the Canadian government with all these leaks of misinformation. The PM of Canada is a Conservative, and the whole thing smells of the Tories getting involved in some over-the-border coordination with the Republicans to muddy the waters on the trade issue for the Democratic candidates. The Republicans have to know they're going to get their rear ends handed to them in the Midwest if they don't pull some dirty tricks like this.

[RSchmitz]

Hillary has a track record a mile long if Obama ever wanted to go after her. Starting with Peter Paul

[Bolthed]

Kinda seems like the bitch is willing to submarine the DNC and the general election if she doesn't get her way. I'm pretty sick of this shit, and we've still got more than two and a half months of it before all the primaries are done.

[TexasBolt]

I think Obama's going to start spilling the beans on Hillary, but there's no need to put it out there a month and a half before Pennsylvania.

[RSchmitz]

I hope he doesn't. Some people are saying he looks weak because he isn't acting like a little kid and trying to smear her like she is doing to him.

[Maverick9911]

I wonder how fast Hillary will distance herself from Eliot Spitzer lol

[Flycoon]

Kinda seems like the bitch is willing to submarine the DNC and the general election if she doesn't get her way. I'm pretty sick of this shit, and we've still got more than two and a half months of it before all the primaries are done.

If the press wasn't in Billary's corner we would see more about their fishy doings like the $10M fron each of the Saudis and UAE to the Clinton Library, and quite a few other slimy things the GOP looks forward to throwing at her. Obama is feared as an opponent because he has no skeletons to taint him.

[TexasBolt]

I wonder how fast Hillary will distance herself from Eliot Spitzer lol

I wonder how many right-wing hacks have forgotten that not three weeks ago, they were screaming bloody murder at the NYT for going after McCain. Probably all of them.

[Donnie D]

If the press wasn't in Billary's corner we would see more about their fishy doings like the $10M fron each of the Saudis and UAE to the Clinton Library, and quite a few other slimy things the GOP looks forward to throwing at her. Obama is feared as an opponent because he has no skeletons to taint him.

Depends on what happens in the Tony Rezko trial. From the Chicago Sun Times:

A possible headache for the Obama campaign is brewing in the corruption case of campaign fundraiser Antonin Rezko. The question whether or not Barack Obama used Rezko as a conduit to get jobs for people in Governor Blagojevich's administration has arisen from a list of 39 people Rezko lawyers said in a court filing, according to the Chicago Sun Times.

That and if there was any sweetheart deal in the purchase of the property next door to him by Rezko who then sold it to Obama.

So far Obama has not been directly tied to Rezko, but there are little puffs of smoke all around this trial.

[jaydeedub]

If the press wasn't in Billary's corner we would see more about their fishy doings like the $10M fron each of the Saudis and UAE to the Clinton Library, and quite a few other slimy things the GOP looks forward to throwing at her. Obama is feared as an opponent because he has no skeletons to taint him.

The Saudis yes, but UAE is not that bad of a country.
And every politician has skeletons in their closet.

[pete]

UAE= The World's Money Launderers

Also, if you think Spitzer should lose his job, doesn't it stand to reason that David Vitter should lose his too?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/09/AR2007070902030.html

[Maverick9911]

He should and that's the first I have heard about him today - CNN was too busy commenting on this bullshit with Geraldine Ferraro. I'm both amused and sick of these GOP smear tactics Hillary has been using lately. Her underlings will come out with some blatantly absurd statement, get attacked for it and then go on the defensive - according to ABC News her spokeswoman basically said "it happens in his campaign too." Nice justification. If somehow Clinton is the nominee, she's gonna have to do a lot of ass kissing and apologizing to the black voters.

Though I guess that's the formula - smear someone, have your candidate come out and act confused, give a fake apology for it and then go right out and do it again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[pete]

Easy on the nickname Maverick. Keep it out of the gutter. You're better than that.

[Maverick9911]

You're right, my bad. I was just insanely pissed when I wrote that but no excuses, it's gone. I'd just seen it on the news, heard Ferraro's BS excuse about how she's only being attacked because she's white and I had to deal with my dad agreeing with her sentiment that he's coddled because he is black.

He goes against any position I have on purpose to annoy me - he did the same in '04 with Kerry and then ended up voting for him. My mom, on the other hand, just has some old fashioned North Florida racism in her and won't care to admit it.

:mad2:

[pete]

Well, the only reason Hillary is a viable presidential candidate in because she is married to a former president. She's only got 8 years of experience in elected office to her name, which is actually less than Obama has between the Senate and the Illinois Senate. So, honestly, her campaign needs to stop throwing stones because they're living in a glass cathedral from where I sit.

[RSchmitz]

She needs to get out of her ivory tower.

Any time somebody brings up race, I just acknowledge that the social progression of this country will eventually eliminate all racists. It works that way in economics, it works that way in main stream society, the only place that racism really has a place today is in private or as toilet humor in redneck bars. Same with African American racists, Ferraro's statement probably touches base with some white people; but it is also true that there is a happy medium that will eventually be reached, I think the backlash in and after South Carolina and Obama's outrageous support out in the midwest is testament of just how far this nation has come. The younger voters who aren't choked up on the civil rights movement of the 60's, and the intelligent college students/graduates who aren't swayed by misinformed prejudices or fear tactics are the ones handing him the white votes. The future looks bright

What needs to happen now is African American voters need to get some economic support and education, and start making some informed decisions. There is still a huge economic divide along racial lines.

Obama took 90% of the black vote in Mississippi. Its been near that for him throughout the entire campaign. Me and several of my friends all agree, we love Obama but the one thing we do not like is that every African American is coming out of the wood work to vote for him on the notion of race. In order for the country to truly wash itself clean is when that percentage comes down to something more reasonable like 65% like Hillary's women vote.

[Donnie D]

That will one day happen. I'm sure there were a lot of Catholics who voted for Kennedy because he was the first. Lots of local politicians got elected because they were Irish (being from Chicago, that was a "negotiated" situation, the Mayor was Irish and other ethnic groups were elected to other positions.) There was a Jewish seat on the court. It's a natural progression.

[jaydeedub]

Originally Posted by pete
UAE= The World's Money Launderers

Come now, don't think they are the only nation known for doing such things. You think the U.S. is clean as a whistle?! :lol: And if that's the only thing you think badly of them than damn they are Saints when compared of some of things OUR nation has done. I love my nation and my home but I'm also quite realistic about our past; our most recent past IMO.

Obama took 90% of the black vote in Mississippi. Its been near that for him throughout the entire campaign. Me and several of my friends all agree, we love Obama but the one thing we do not like is that every African American is coming out of the wood work to vote for him on the notion of race. In order for the country to truly wash itself clean is when that percentage comes down to something more reasonable like 65% like Hillary's women vote.

This is what worries me when it comes down to the actual election in November. What happens then when we have Obama and McCain? All the white "country-folk" will be coming out strong and voting McCain in a big way just because of the race thing. This worries me big time that it'll come down to this and make it a tight race. Obama would have to focus on the big states like NY, FL, CA, TX, IL (should be a lock) OH, and PA. But in most of these states thus far in the primaries Hillary has taken them but IL, swinging the white vote (and females). Hope Obama blows McCain out of the water come convention time and debate time. He'll have to pick a decent VP running mate to counter balance McCain.
Do not want another 4 years of Bush 2 in the Casa Blanca. Want a change.

[pete]

Come now, don't think they are the only nation known for doing such things.

My understanding is that in the UAE it is SOP not to keep written records of any transactions, and to my knowledge they're the only country that operates that way. When the government tried to give the port security contract to Dubai World a couple of years ago there was actually a provision the company slipped in the contract saying that they were not required to keep written records of anyone they hired, among other things. Now, that may strike you as insane for port security, but its SOP for the UAE culturally, because like I said they're the world's money launderers.

[Hoek]

I remember months ago the story was that Obama was actually having trouble garnering the black vote as strongly as might have been expected. Now it's a bad thing that the expected trend is happening? Ehh.. I'll never get silly stuff like this. Stick to the issues.

[Maverick9911]

I tire of it as well. You have people like Bob Johnson supporting Hillary and while I don't begrudge him that, a lot of his supporters come up with ludicrous BS about how if the King of BET doesn't approve of Obama, he must not be black enough. You have closet neocons like Shelby Steele spouting off about how whites who vote for Obama are doing so out of guilt and that Obama is merely bargaining for their support and selling out his heritage at the same time.

It's disgusting.

[Maverick9911]

So I'm at a card shop today and I innocently ask an old man going through a box of Topps Baseball cards if he's found any of the presidential inserts (I can't find Obama or McCain).

This simple question turns into a diatribe about how "McCain and Huckabee are gonna kill each other in the general election" and how "our girl's" card is worth around $100. I gave him a frown when he mentioned Hillary and then politely suggested a baseball card shop wasn't a good place to talk politics. He chose not to listen.

Among his gems:

- Obama wants to declare worldwide socialism and welfare for all
- Obama only runs on charisma but since he has Black America ready to take over the nation, he might win
- He said he supported Hillary but then said she would be just as bad as McCain
- The Mexicans have a secret plan to overrun the country by 2015, which involves purposely having 4-8 children per family. He advocates having the military clean out Plant City (his home) of all the Mexicans and "spanish folk".

Being one of those spanish folk (though I pass for white well apparently), I just nodded until the owner came back to check me out. Never argue with an idiot...:lol:

[Hoek]

Yikes.. That last bit is just scary. As a fellow 'spanish folk' that also easily passes for white the whole anti-immigrant atmosphere of late always makes me feel quite awkward. There's just so much people don't understand about the Mexicans as a whole sadly (especially how utterly humble their aspirations are). To be honest we should be a lot more grateful we don't have a far more antagonistic neighbor and culture to deal with as far as the illegal immigrant issue goes..

People should find a better outlet for their grievances towards Mexico instead of inventing conspiracy theories. Like supporting our soccer team dang it! We've been kicking their asses for a while now.. :D

[RSchmitz]

Being a Plant City native, I have been around immigrants all my life. I grew up in a poor multicultural neighborhood, me and my brother use to run down to the local school kickball field and play soccer barefoot with our Hispanic and black neighbors. And I have also volunteered countless hours in the migrant program at Bryant elementary school which has something like a 95% Latino student body. I love helping them learn English and try to make them feel welcome by us white folk.

Having said that, I really don't like immigrants, well at least enough of them to make a broad generalization. I know that isn't very pc, but its the truth. I don't like the immigrants who feel like they should speak Spanish within earshot of me when I just heard them speaking English, or the ones who wear Mexican flags on their t-shirts. When I worked bagging groceries at Publix, I didn't like the ones who would use food stamps and then have me carry groceries out to their car that was 10x better than mine, yet they live in a trailer park. My dad use to hire immigrants to help him repair homes at a good wage but had to stop because they started stealing his tools, not showing up, or just going really slow. My mom rented the house I grew up to a Hispanic family and they burned it down in two months.

I mean, that isn't a conspiracy theory, but real life experiences. I probably have more Hispanic friends than I have white friends and oddly enough they dislike immigrants more than I do.

[Hoek]

I don't like the immigrants who feel like they should speak Spanish within earshot of me when I just heard them speaking English,

Definitely rude. No disagreement there. I try to avoid that unless I feel I absolutely need that extra degree of privacy when speaking to a relative and someone is being rude or too nosy towards me in the first place. I also really don't like hearing Spanish when I go to Walmart and other weird things like that, and agree with making English the official language or at least stressing it more than we have been instead of constantly accommodating those who are too lazy to learn.

or the ones who wear Mexican flags on their t-shirts.

More tacky than anything else, IMO. No different than the hicks who wear confederate flags though or go overboard with our own nation's banner. I guess it is a bit more hypocritical to be so obsessively "proud of one's heritage" when it didn't serve you well, though. I like Argentina and all, but I'll always be more proud to be American. On the other hand, ehh.. t-shirts and flags don't piss me off in general.

When I worked bagging groceries at Publix, I didn't like the ones who would use food stamps and then have me carry groceries out to their car that was 10x better than mine, yet they live in a trailer park.

Just because they have it doesn't mean they can afford it (especially as we're seeing now in this economic downturn). Could just be poor judgment on their part. Plenty of people from all walks of life abuse welfare.

My dad use to hire immigrants to help him repair homes at a good wage but had to stop because they started stealing his tools, not showing up, or just going really slow. My mom rented the house I grew up to a Hispanic family and they burned it down in two months.

Plenty of rednecks do this sort of stuff too, and I've had to deal with similar behavior by them on occasion. :noidea:

I mean, that isn't a conspiracy theory, but real life experiences. I probably have more Hispanic friends than I have white friends and oddly enough they dislike immigrants more than I do.

I've had more negative experiences with arrogant Puerto Ricans and Cubans that take their citizenship for granted than Mexicans, for what it's worth (which as far as anecdotes go is not much). Stupid people are stupid people. Simple as that. That's who I dislike, immigrant or not, though it does displease me a lot when it is someone who clearly doesn't appreciate the unique opportunity and freedom they have because of moving here.

[Maverick9911]

I've had more negative experiences with arrogant Puerto Ricans and Cubans that take their citizenship for granted than Mexicans, for what it's worth

Many of my friends are hispanic and it seems they rant and rave about immigrants more than anyone. My father is from San Juan but unless you ask him it isn't very noticeable. I've been many places where he speaks spanish and it is met with shock (and in some places they flat out refuse to respond in anything but english!). He's proud of his heritage - he's spent more time in Tampa than anywhere else since he was an army brat - and while I don't speak the language I am as well.

It annoys the hell out of me when I see people driving around in their rice burners laden with stickers of Mi Orgullo, Coqui frogs, torn flags, etc. I call them mobile embassies. You go to Puerto Rico and you don't see that crap - here I can't escape Wal-Mart without seeing someone dressed like a walking billboard. The problem I have with it goes beyond the simple decals and attire. I have been around many who will repeatedly deny they are American, instead saying they are Cuban, Dominican, etc. yet these are people born in the US. I used to go to school with a lot of kids who would say "This stuff doesn't happen in Havana/Santo Domingo" but they had never once set foot on that soil (or in reverse, the Puerto Ricans whom have never left New York or Florida). You go to Puerto Rico and those people are viewed as nothing but buffoons.

Those are the people who give the rest of us bad names. I've been told so often that I "don't look like a hispanic" that I got used to telling people "I'm hispanic but I look nothing like it". I guess all hispanics are supposed to look like Daddy Yankee or Carlos Mencia?:noidea: One time at FSU I was dealing with an academic advisor who told me to learn spanish because "we are the minority and those spanish would be the majority someday...we need to know how to talk to those kinds of people" with a sly wink. I've been asked several times if my father has a green card and if he had to apply for citizenship! I digress...

However in the interest of full disclosure, I did put "Puerto Rican" under the nationality section of my Stetson Law app because a judge I know suggested I would get more scholarship money that way. I was extremely hesitant at first but I was gonna put hispanic anyways, so it's not like I'm trying to pass off as a NA or something :)

[WaiverWire]

I was at the Sears at Citrus Park on Friday and they were playing music on their speaker system. When the music stopped those that were speaking over the system spoke only Spanish. :noidea:

[Hoek]

Yeah exactly WaiverWire. Stuff like that lately really gets to me, even though I understand Spanish and all, it just feels patronizing and wrong. Like I'm gonna buy more crap just because of that, and to make everyone else feel like they just crossed the border into another country. Ugh.. Just too far..

LOL, mobile embassies. Gotta remember that one. Totally agreed with that post.

Just so people don't think I'm entirely bagging on one end, I understand the frustration from all angles of the issue since I feel caught in the middle. It's when people really go off the deep end in favor of isolation that it scares me, because it seems to be happening more often now than when I was growing up and Neil Diamond's "Coming to America" was a hit song on the radio. No matter how much people rant and rave about it, deporting 12 million people and building massive walls just aren't realistic solutions (about the only thing I can give Bush and McCain positive credit for is willfully and openly recognizing that in the face of so much dissent within their own party), and for heaven's sake it's not a national security issue.. sheesh..

[TexasBolt]

Just because they have it doesn't mean they can afford it (especially as we're seeing now in this economic downturn). Could just be poor judgment on their part. Plenty of people from all walks of life abuse welfare.

And no matter what race, there are plenty of people, especially young people, living way beyond their means. Just drive around this area for a day or two, you'll see what I mean. The term "$30,000 millionaires" was coined here for a reason.

[RSchmitz]

and for heaven's sake it's not a national security issue.. sheesh..

Agreed on all points but that. Maybe not terrorism, which is still remotely possible; but drug trafficking is a MAJOR problem.

[Flycoon]

Agreed on all points but that. Maybe not terrorism, which is still remotely possible; but drug trafficking is a MAJOR problem.

Nah. The real drug problems are meth and crack which are manufactured in bathtubs in trailer parks. Most weed is grown here now, coke and heroin just about the only imported illicit drugs anymore. I know of far more people having drug problems with prescription drugs than street drugs.

[CTLightning26]

So I'm at a card shop today and I innocently ask an old man going through a box of Topps Baseball cards if he's found any of the presidential inserts (I can't find Obama or McCain).

This simple question turns into a diatribe about how "McCain and Huckabee are gonna kill each other in the general election" and how "our girl's" card is worth around $100. I gave him a frown when he mentioned Hillary and then politely suggested a baseball card shop wasn't a good place to talk politics. He chose not to listen.

Among his gems:

- Obama wants to declare worldwide socialism and welfare for all
- Obama only runs on charisma but since he has Black America ready to take over the nation, he might win
- He said he supported Hillary but then said she would be just as bad as McCain
- The Mexicans have a secret plan to overrun the country by 2015, which involves purposely having 4-8 children per family. He advocates having the military clean out Plant City (his home) of all the Mexicans and "spanish folk".

Being one of those spanish folk (though I pass for white well apparently), I just nodded until the owner came back to check me out. Never argue with an idiot...:lol:

Another reason why you should make people over 65 take some type of intelligence test before allowing them to vote.

[Jester47]

Another reason why you should make people over 65 take some type of intelligence test before allowing them to vote.

But first could we working on them having to take a driving test before they get out there on the road with the rest of us???

:horn:

[Hoek]

There's a real easy way to solve the drug trafficking issue: make it a completely worthless enterprise.

But that's a whole different can of worms to open up. :p

Another reason why you should make people over 65 take some type of intelligence test before allowing them to vote.

Better yet, make everyone take the same citizenship test immigrants have to take before having the right to vote. That would be fair and cover the same necessary things as far as civics education goes. (Not entirely serious, I know there's a whole myriad of unresolvable issues that would make it untenable.. *sigh*)

[Flycoon]

Another reason why you should make people over 65 take some type of intelligence test before allowing them to vote.

I'd say you ask them if they think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy are funny; answer yes and they get a coupon for a six of PBR at 7-11 or they can vote. That would thin the herd.

[Flycoon]

There's a real easy way to solve the drug trafficking issue: make it a completely worthless enterprise.

But that's a whole different can of worms to open up. :p

True. But the prisons would empty, too much money there. I wonder if there has ever been a study done on the "war on drugs" that shows the true total cost. Law enforcement, prosecution, prisons, welfare, the whole gamut. Mandatory minimum sentences have made it worse.

A former client was arrested in Boston in the late '70s for growing a pot plant on his porch, again in the late '80s when an officer saw a roach in an ashtray at his house while serving him for not appearing on speeding violations, and in the early '90s for having knowledge of an alleged ring of marijuana smugglers and refusing to roll on them. 25 years, no parole. He owned a profitable roofing company that employed around 25 people and has now vanished. What a waste.

[Bolthed]

Hmmm, no thoughts on Barack's pastor?

[Flycoon]

Hmmm, no thoughts on Barack's pastor?

Nope. GOP/Clinton talking point.

[Hoek]

The pope says a lot of stupid shit, too. Guess we should hold every Catholic in or running for office accountable for that. :rolleyes:

[Maverick9911]

I'm Catholic (sorta lapsed) and if I were running for office I would be immediately excommunicated because I would be the first one to admit that Pope Wienerschnitzel is full of crap.

[CTLightning26]

Hmmm, no thoughts on Barack's pastor?

It doesn't matter to me. A lot of (NOT ALL) what he said is the truth.
It shouldn't matter to anyone.
But... I fear it will hurt Barack in the general election.
--
Unless, this Bob Parshley guy becomes more well known. Because what he has said is just as bad on the religious front.

[RSchmitz]

A lot of what Ferraro said was the truth too, depends on your pov